06 Jul 16
Originally posted by SuzianneAccording to Welton the man in the video of th OP, the abominaton that causes desolation has already occured by a man named John Levi when he sat down in the temple and proclaimes himself God.
Specifically, the ones about the Tribulation and the rapture and when he mentions the coming of the Son of Man. I guess this would be 24:4 through 24:44.
Especially 24:15 which speaks of the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place. This is the segue from 'the beginning of sorrows' into the Tribulation. "The holy place" has been long believed to be the third Temple.
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06 Jul 16
Originally posted by yoctobyte
Which ones in particular? I am interested.
Which ones in particular? I am interested.
I think all the verses up to verse 14 I we would have to admit have some fulfillment already. This does not mean that there is no more to be had though.
Now verse 14 I have to believe is yet to be completed.
And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole inhabited earth for a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come." (v.14)
I regard that as still a work in progress.
Verse 15 I regard as yet to occur. (Though abominable things did already occur in the temple in 70 AD).
Verses 16 through 26 I would regard as still to come in full. However no one could argue that tribulation and suffering of the nature of some of these things have already occurred to the Jews.
Verse 27 about the Lord Jesus appearing as lightening is still to come.
Verse 28 still to come.
Verse 29 still to come.
Verse 30 still to come.
Verse 31 still to come.
Verse 32 I think refers perhaps to 1948 when Israel again became a nation.
"But learn the parable from the fig tree: As soon as its branch has become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that the summer is near.
So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near, at the doors." (vs 32,33)
The fig tree, a symbol of Israel, becoming tender and sprouting leaves, may indeed refer to the reformation of the nation state of Israel in 1948.
Verses 40 through 44 I would certainly count as yet to be fulfilled. But verses 36 through 38 about the age being as in the time of Noah, I would say is occurring at present. I would not venture to pin-point a specific starting point on those matters though.
Verses 45 through 51 closing the chapter pertain to things Christ will do after He comes again. So those things are part of the warnings to disciples of Jesus about matters they will face yet in the future.
06 Jul 16
1 edit
Originally posted by sonshipThe video of the OP hits on all of these examples, this is why I started the thread because i found it very interesting and wanted to discuss it with others.Which ones in particular? I am interested.
I think all the verses up to verse 14 I we would have to admit have some fulfillment already. This does not mean that there is no more to be had though.
Now verse 14 I have to believe is yet to be completed.
[quote] [b] And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole inhabit ...[text shortened]... s are part of the warnings to disciples of Jesus about matters they will face yet in the future.
I am interested in 'end times' things but can't really say how some of the things believed today in that regard came to be.
However, to discuss these events further, i guess one would have to digest the OP, in order to be on the same page... if there is that interest that is
This will mess with your doctrine, no doubt.
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Originally posted by yoctobyte
The video of the OP hits on all of these examples, this is why I started the thread because i found it very interesting and wanted to discuss it with others.
I am interested in 'end times' things but can't really say how some of the things believed today in that regard came to be.
However, to discuss these events further, i guess one would have to digest the OP, in order to be on the same page... if there is that interest that is
This will mess with your doctrine, no doubt.
The most important matters concerning the end times prophecies are really not the external matters. The external matters are important. But without something going in within at least a remnant of God's people, the external matters which everyone pays more attention to will not occur.
This will take the discussion in a little bit of a different direction. But this is contribution to it I would find pertinent.
Let me give you an example of what i mean from the Old Testament.
After the Babylonian Captivity Daniel studied the prophesy of the prophet Jeremiah to ascertain when the captivity would end. The answer he found was - in seventy years.
Now, Daniel was a man of God. And his three companions were also men of God. They made a well coordinated team of godly saints, albeit in captivity. Daniel did not simply WAIT to see the prophesy fulfilled. He petitioned God for the fulfillment. And He did so at the risk of losing his life.
Daniel WITHIN cooperated with God in prayers and petitions (not to mention a consecrated life unto God). He did so at great risk. Daniel therefore became a man who turned the age.
Now this is somewhat mysterious. But we well need to pay attention. Daniel did not simply look for the outward and external signs of the fulfullment of God's prophecy. Rather he calibrated himself and lived godly and interceded for God's people and for God to DO what God had PROMISED.
The difference is passive expectation verses active cooperation.
It will be exactly the same with the second coming of Christ. The most important driving factors are those within at least a remnant of God's people attuned to what God has promised He will do.
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We all may know the story of Daniel in the lions den. But we usually do not grasp its significance one bit.
Daniel knew from studying Jeremiah's book, that the Jews would return to the Promised Land from Babylon in seventy years. He had a custom to PRAY concerning that, three times a day.
Now Satan the Devil behind the scenes wanted to STOP Daniel from praying. And Satan concocted a scheme so that if Daniel continued these powerful prayers he would be thrown into a lion's den to spend the night.
Why didn't Daniel simply STOP praying for the designated thirty days ?
Why?
Why did Daniel risk his life to continue to go against the government's decree not to pray for 30 days ? He knew that his prayers were the force laying the tracks upon which the train of God's will would roll in.
Daniel certainly did not have to continue his daily petitions to God. But he did. He saw something that the Christians today need to see. The external fulfillment depended on the internal calibration of God's people to echo God's desire in prayer and petition and certainly in living also.
This is not a small thing.
06 Jul 16
Originally posted by sonship
[quote] The video of the OP hits on all of these examples, this is why I started the thread because i found it very interesting and wanted to discuss it with others.
I am interested in 'end times' things but can't really say how some of the things believed today in that regard came to be.
However, to discuss these events further, i guess one would h ...[text shortened]... are those within at least a remnant of God's people attuned to what God has promised He will do.
It will be exactly the same with the second coming of Christ. The most important driving factors are those within at least a remnant of people attuned to what God has promised He will do.
What if Jesus came a second time already, this is one of the matters discussed in this video. We have in our minds (most I think) as to how the second coming should look, but is that accurate? Jonathan Welton in the video explains that Jesus came the second time with judgement upon "this generation" the generation alive at the time of the destruction of the temple in 70AD, the same generation he was talking to... when the disciples asked him about the end of the age....
...just like he said he would.
Its hard to have a conversation about this because I am referring to something you don't want to entertain, I get it is nearly 2hrs long for a video (we watch fictitious movies that are sometimes longer for entertainment)... but it is very interesting if you have the interest in the subject matter.
But please tell me it is not because you are prohibited to listen to teachings or read materials outside of your particular denomination that you associate with like the JW sometimes do. It's not is it?
Mr. Welton has also written a book which a lot of the video covers and can be downloaded for free...
https://weltonacademy.com/collections/products/products/raptureless-first-edition-free-download
... if there is interest.
On to the day, make it a good one!
06 Jul 16
Originally posted by sonship
We all may know the story of [b]Daniel in the lions den. But we usually do not grasp its significance one bit.
Daniel knew from studying Jeremiah's book, that the Jews would return to the Promised Land from Babylon in seventy years. He had a custom to PRAY concerning that, three times a day.
Now Satan the Devil behind the scenes wante ...[text shortened]... ire in prayer and petition and certainly in living also.
This is not a small thing.[/b]
Daniel certainly did not have to continue his daily petitions to God. But he did. He saw something that the Christians today need to see. The external fulfillment depended on the internal calibration of God's people to echo God's desire in prayer and petition and certainly in living also.
"He saw something that the Christians today need to see"
Bingo! My point on this thread exactly... more eloquently put of course.
I think we are fairly spoon fed what we believe and don't even know why we believe a thing when asked. My point exactly!
In the least this whole topic can lead to some interesting thought provoking conversations, I am about that.
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06 Jul 16
Originally posted by yoctobyte
What if Jesus came a second time already, this is one of the matters discussed in this video.
Do you believe that Jesus has had His second coming already ?
I think we need to get down to what we believe.
I certainly do not believe the second coming of Christ has occurred.
We have in our minds (most I think) as to how the second coming should look, but is that accurate? Jonathan Welton in the video explains that Jesus came the second time with judgement upon "this generation" the generation alive at the time of the destruction of the temple in 70AD, the same generation he was talking to... when the disciples asked him about the end of the age....
Jonathan Wells will get some attention. He may sell some books and make a sensation for a time or even a passing fad.
In the Apostle Paul's day even some of the Christian workers were teaching that the resurrection had already occurred. Paul said that they overthrew the faith of some by teaching this.
" But avoid profane, vain babblings, for they will advance to more ungodliness,
And their word will spread like gangrene, of whom are Hymenaeus and Philetus, Who concerning the truth have misaimed, saying that the resurrection has already taken place,
and overthrow the faith of some." (2 Timothy 2:16-18)
There is hardly anything new under the sun. Today some false teaching damaging the faith of some asserts that the second coming of Christ has already occurred. Don't take this talk seriously.
Paul is not at all kind. He says these false teachings will spread like the disease of gangrene. It kills spiritual life.
...just like he said he would.
Its hard to have a conversation about this because I am referring to something you don't want to entertain, I get it is nearly 2hrs long for a video (we watch fictitious movies that are sometimes longer for entertainment)... but it is very interesting if you have the interest in the subject matter.
Do you believe in your heart that the second coming of Christ has already taken place?
Zany ideas have no end.
I don't think you believe this man. Maybe you find his teaching intriguing. i think true teaching is more intriguing.
But please tell me it is not because you are prohibited to listen to teachings or read materials outside of your particular denomination that you associate with like the JW sometimes do. It's not is it?
I am in no way prohibited. It is a long video. I am spending some time on some videos about Islam at the moment.
Mr. Welton has also written a book which a lot of the video covers and can be downloaded for free...
https://weltonacademy.com/collections/products/products/raptureless-first-edition-free-download
... if there is interest.
You have to have some grounding in the New Testament itself. Otherwise anyone can really tell you anything. But i have not seen your video yet.
But didn't you read the words of Jesus about the visible aspect of His second coming after the great tribulation?
"And immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
And at that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the land will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." (vs. 29,30)
This is surely an event that has not yet occured. And so also with verse 27.
'For just as lightening comes forth from the east and shines to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be." (v.27)
This is still to come. Don't you think so?
06 Jul 16
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Originally posted by yoctobyteI think this is not really true. I think this is one man saying these things because he knows they will be controversial.It will be exactly the same with the second coming of Christ. The most important driving factors are those within at least a remnant of people attuned to what God has promised He will do.
What if Jesus came a second time already, this is one of the matters discussed in this video. We have in our minds (most I think) as to how the second ...[text shortened]... -first-edition-free-download
... if there is interest.
On to the day, make it a good one!
There's also this, right in Matthew 24:
"Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Behold, I have told you before.
Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not." -- Matthew 24:23-26, KJV
Because of this next verse:
"For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be." -- Matthew 24:27, KJV
A thing like this cannot just come and go without mankind knowing about it. And I mean really knowing. Make no mistake, the next coming of the Son of man will be a worldwide event that none can ignore.
But, before that, the beginning of sorrows (42 months) and then the great Tribulation (42 months), starting with the AntiChrist taking control and ending with the arrival of Jesus Christ and the binding of Satan and the fulfillment of human history in the millennial Kingdom of God.
Clearly, this hasn't happened already.
"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." -- Matthew 24:29-31, KJV
06 Jul 16
Originally posted by sonshipWhat if Jesus came a second time already, this is one of the matters discussed in this video.
Do you believe that Jesus has had His second coming already ?
I think we need to get down to what we believe.
I certainly do not believe the second coming of Christ has occurred.
We have in our minds (most I think) as to how ...[text shortened]... coming of the Son of Man be." (v.27)
This is still to come. Don't you think so?[/b]My inquires are an investigation only and I seek deeper understanding of things. Mr. Welton is just someone I have happened upon that talks about things in a way I have not heard before, with compelling scripture and historical facts to back it up.
As far as Jesus Second Coming... I believe what the bible says, of course.
Appreciate your thoughts.
06 Jul 16
Originally posted by SuzianneAll I can say is I do not want to be a part of anyone's faith faltering, not for one second... I take this very seriously. Perhaps this is the wrong place to discuss things of this nature to such a depth. I think maybe so.
I think this is not really true. I think this is one man saying these things because he knows they will be controversial.
There's also this, right in Matthew 24:
"Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomu ...[text shortened]... his cannot just come and go without mankind knowing about it. And I mean really knowing.
I have not hung my hat on this guy, by no means... I started the thread to get others input, but so far I have received opinions without listening to the video.
I am content at this point to let the thread die. Thanks for your contribution Suzi & sonship.
06 Jul 16
Originally posted by sonshipWhat if Jesus came a second time already, this is one of the matters discussed in this video.
Do you believe that Jesus has had His second coming already ?
I think we need to get down to what we believe.
I certainly do not believe the second coming of Christ has occurred.
We have in our minds (most I think) as to how ...[text shortened]... coming of the Son of Man be." (v.27)
This is still to come. Don't you think so?[/b]Wow, yes, I agree. Maybe this will teach me to read the whole thread before replying.
I didn't mean to put out very nearly the same reply.
We've disagreed on some of the finer points of scripture, but I guess on this chapter we can agree.
06 Jul 16
1 edit
Originally posted by yoctobyteSorry that I wasn't quite finished with my reply before you replied. I do that a lot: I start off with one thought and then add to it as other stuff strikes me.
All I can say is I do not want to be a part of anyone's faith faltering, not for one second... I take this very seriously. Perhaps this is the wrong place to discuss things of this nature to such a depth. I think maybe so.
I have not hung my hat on this guy, by no means... I started the thread to get others input, but so far I have received opinions ...[text shortened]...
I am content at this point to let the thread die. Thanks for your contribution Suzi & sonship.
I'm pretty sure my faith won't be faltering because of one video. If that is all my faith is worth, then I don't stand much chance of refusing the mark of the beast, which we're all warned against. It's not something I'm exactly "chomping at the bit" to go see, either, since apparently, I won't be agreeing with much in it. I already know many will be deceived in the last days, and I'm not really excited to see the proof of that, either.
At least YouTube is the voice of the people; everyone can make up their own mind about what they see on it. But for sure it's not all puppies and unicorns and rainbows, and it's simply not all true, either. I mean, some videos I've seen on there of stuff people put up testifying against God and Christ are simply horrific, but some are far more subtle, but no less insidious.
I'll probably watch your video sometime, through sheer curiosity, if nothing else, but I'd bet you 100 bucks right now I probably won't finish it.
EDIT: And oh yeah, the actual reason I wrote this reply in the first place was to say I like your avatar. 🙂
06 Jul 16
Originally posted by sonshipWhat if Jesus came a second time already, this is one of the matters discussed in this video.
Do you believe that Jesus has had His second coming already ?
I think we need to get down to what we believe.
I certainly do not believe the second coming of Christ has occurred.
We have in our minds (most I think) as to how ...[text shortened]... coming of the Son of Man be." (v.27)
This is still to come. Don't you think so?[/b]After waiting for 2000 yrs when Jesus left saying he will return soon, one has to begin to wonder if there must be something about the return of Christ that Christians are not considering. It is within the realm of possibility that He is already here. One such sign is the unpresendented and unmatched advance in many aspects of life on earth in the last 50/60 yrs.
Your insisting [and many others like you], that it is not possible has nothing to do with lightening from east to west and other such signs. It has to do with if it is in fact true that Jesus is here then how come you are not among the chosen saints ... thats your problem.
06 Jul 16
Originally posted by SuzianneThanks for your comments. I will add that Mr. Welton is not a flimflam, he has a doctorate in Eschatology, so he is well studied and travels internationally.
Sorry that I wasn't quite finished with my reply before you replied. I do that a lot: I start off with one thought and then add to it as other stuff strikes me.
I'm pretty sure my faith won't be faltering because of one video. If that is all my faith is worth, then I don't stand much chance of refusing the mark of the beast, which we're all warned agai ...[text shortened]... yeah, the actual reason I wrote this reply in the first place was to say I like your avatar. 🙂
Cya