04 Feb 14
Originally posted by josephwsorry i don't understand a word of your text, if you have something of relevance to say can you not say it plainly?
[b]"what scriptural basis is therefore believing that Christ is also the archangel Michael"
WHAT?
Therefore, what grammatical basis is there for believing you can read a Bible and understand what it is saying?
Hilarious! 😵[/b]
04 Feb 14
Originally posted by robbie carrobie" ,..i am an excellent student of scripture..."
I have changed nothing, i am an excellent student of scripture and was fully aware of how the term can be rendered, you really are not that knowledgeable suzzianne, that is why you need to resort to using third party references explaining concepts for you where i have consistently made reference to the #Bible in its original language.
Fully accredited by the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society.
How come you don't know who Jesus is? After all, the Word of God clearly states who Jesus Christ is from cover to cover. It is so clear.
I think you are afraid of the Truth.
04 Feb 14
Originally posted by robbie carrobieYou are extremely thick-headed. Surely you must understand that words have more than one meaning, and to understand the proper usage, you depend on context. Paul explicitly avoided use of the Greek for "first created" which is what you claim he meant. Paul is using a colloquialism of the times, and you cannot see that because your man-made dogma has blinded you to the truth. You can't even see the context in the rest of the passage because you are shackled by the official dogma or your corporation.
what you attempted to do rather dishonestly with colossians chapter 1 was to impose your dogma on scripture, there is absolutely nothing in the language to indicate that the verse should read the first-born above all creation, nothing. I have no problem with people and translators bringing out the implicit meaning but stating that Jesus is above all ...[text shortened]... lossians for the Greek is quite explicit as it stands, Christ is the first-born of all creation.
04 Feb 14
1 edit
Originally posted by SuzianneThe only reason that you can possibly have for not accepting the plain truth of the matter is that you don't want it to mean what it actually does means.
You are extremely thick-headed. Surely you must understand that words have more than one meaning, and to understand the proper usage, you depend on context. Paul explicitly avoided use of the Greek for "first created" which is what you claim he meant. Paul is using a colloquialism of the times, and you cannot see that because your man-made dogma has blin ...[text shortened]... t in the rest of the passage because you are shackled by the official dogma or your corporation.
We are not interested in words Pal did not use but the ones that he did and he states clearly the the first-born is of creation. Now you can cry about it, lie about it, try to change the explicit meaning with vague references to this and that, but you cannot change the text, the firstborn is of the creation.
04 Feb 14
Originally posted by josephw"Fully accredited by the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society"
[b]" ,..i am an excellent student of scripture..."
Fully accredited by the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society.
How come you don't know who Jesus is? After all, the Word of God clearly states who Jesus Christ is from cover to cover. It is so clear.
I think you are afraid of the Truth.[/b]
Yep it is. God said he would have a people for his name and we are the only ones that use it as it should be used.
Matthew 6:9
Good News Translation (GNT)
9 This, then, is how you should pray:
‘Our Father in heaven:
May your holy name be honored;
This is Jesus speaking about his Father not himself. He said his Fathers name is to be honored.
No ther religion uses his name and in fact refuses to use it or acknowledges it and even in most circumstanses do not even know what it is because their religious leaders do not honor it.
So yes the WTS is doing exactly as the Bible says and honors Jehovahs name......
04 Feb 14
I just want to clarify that I do believe that Jesus is God and that the scriptures clearly teach this. There are many things in the scriptures that untrained or undisciplined people twist and distort. There are many passages that seem to even contradict but upon further investigation they do not contradict at all. A basic understanding of the original languages helps. Looking at scripture and using scripture to interpret scripture is essential in most cases. I believe that Michael as referenced in the passages is none other than Jesus. The use of the word angel is a stumbling block for some. In the Old testament were the term Angel of the Lord is used I believe is an appearance of the pre-incarnate Christ and He even calls Himself the Captain or Chief of the Host. Balam saw The Captain of the Host with a sword drawn (well his Donkey saw Him first) to take his life. Samson's parents also saw the same Captain of the host and why were they afraid ? The Captain of the host said His name was wonderful !! Who can rightfully claim this name other than God ?
Manny
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04 Feb 14
2 edits
. I believe that Michael as referenced in the passages is none other than Jesus.
So then when the writer of the book of Hebrews asks rhetorically in Hebrews 1:5 -
"For to which of the angels has He [God] ever said, 'You are My Son; this day I have begotten You' "
Your reply would be "To Michael the angel God said that."
04 Feb 14
Originally posted by robbie carrobieHere is the last verse in that paragraph that may explain what is meant:
The only reason that you can possibly have for not accepting the plain truth of the matter is that you don't want it to mean what it actually does means.
We are not interested in words Pal did not use but the ones that he did and he states clearly the the first-born is of creation. Now you can cry about it, lie about it, try to change the expli ...[text shortened]... e references to this and that, but you cannot change the text, the firstborn is of the creation.
And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
(Colossians 1:18 KJV)
Can't the Greek word translated "firstborn" mean the head over or and the one having preeminence over all things, both alive and dead, as explained in this verse?
Also how could it mean He was created, if it says He created ALL things?
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
(Colossians 1:16-17 KJV)
The following is the complete paragraph according to the NKJV:
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.
(Colossians 1:15-18 NKJV)
04 Feb 14
1 edit
Originally posted by menace71Don't forget that the word translated "angel" also means "messenger". I also believe this "Messenger of the Lord" who identifies Himself as the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob to Moses is the preincarnate Christ and the "I AM" mentioned here in Exodus 3:14 and John 8:59. However that is must different that believing He is a created spiritual being in heaven that we call angels.
I just want to clarify that I do believe that Jesus is God and that the scriptures clearly teach this. There are many things in the scriptures that untrained or undisciplined people twist and distort. There are many passages that seem to even contradict but upon further investigation they do not contradict at all. A basic understanding of the original langu ...[text shortened]... ost said His name was wonderful !! Who can rightfully claim this name other than God ?
Manny
05 Feb 14
Originally posted by RJHindsSo is Jesus an angel? The Bible says he is when it is speaking of Michael. An angel is an angel or do you have some compremising vauge explination that is not in the Bible?
Don't forget that the word translated "angel" also means "messenger". I also believe this "Messenger of the Lord" who identifies Himself as the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob to Moses is the preincarnate Christ and the "I AM" mentioned here in Exodus 3:14 and John 8:59. However that is must different that believing He is a created spiritual being in heaven that we call angels.
05 Feb 14
Originally posted by galveston75Jesus is a messenger of God. However, Jesus is not a created angel, like Michael or Gabriel.
So is Jesus an angel? The Bible says he is when it is speaking of Michael. An angel is an angel or do you have some compremising vauge explination that is not in the Bible?
05 Feb 14
Originally posted by sonship1 Thessalonians 4:16. I believe that Michael as referenced in the passages is none other than Jesus.
So then when the writer of the book of [b]Hebrews asks rhetorically in Hebrews 1:5 -
"For to which of the angels has He [God] ever said, 'You are My Son; this day I have begotten You' "
Your reply would be "To Michael the angel God said that."[/b]
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
Explain this ? The Lord himself ---then with the voice of the
Maybe it is not as it seems is what I'm saying for you only have several options here. Either it's Jesus and then the Archangel ....Or Jesus is this Archangel as it's in the same sentence. Why would Jesus need an Archangel to use its voice in place of His?? Maybe the way it is translated is what is hanging people up. The word angel does not necessary mean created being. It can mean messenger also. The Chief Messenger even in the case of Archangel
Manny
05 Feb 14
Bible Study ToolsOur LibraryLexiconsNew Testament Greek LexiconNew Testament Greek Lexicon - New American StandardArchaggelos
Archaggelos
The NAS New Testament Greek Lexicon
Strong's Number: 743
Original Word Word Origin
arcaggeloß from (757) and (32)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Archaggelos 1:87,12
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
ar-khang'-el-os Noun Masculine
Definition
archangel, or chief of the angels
Manny