Michael the archangel

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
the scripture does not say above all creation what it say is of creation, there is no above all in the Greek text you simply fabricated it and secondly you were not asked what first-born means, what you were actually asked is why the Bible states that Jesus is of the creation , that is a part of it and you say that he is not.

Again the Bible state ...[text shortened]...

you have failed to answer or even understand the question, wheter deliberately i cannot say.

The one you call "Jehovah" appeared to Moses in a burnig bush as the angel of the LORD. He identified himself as the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Does that make Jehovah God an angel too?

And the Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. Then Moses said, “I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn.”

So when the Lord saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!”

And he said, “Here I am.”

Then He said, “Do not draw near this place. Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground.” Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God.

(Exodus 3:2-6 NKJV)

Originally posted by galveston75
Humm? So Jesus said specifically not to worhip him but yet you do, then you add to this scripture where in fact it does not say anything about worshipping the son Jesus. Wow, just keep making it up as you go huh?

The Watchtower is the one making it up and they have made a fool out of you. Wise up before it is too late.

Originally posted by RJHinds
The one you call "Jehovah" appeared to Moses in a burnig bush as the angel of the LORD. He identified himself as the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Does that make Jehovah God an angel too?

[b]And the Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush wa ...[text shortened]... f Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God.

(Exodus 3:2-6 NKJV)[/b]

Exodus 3:2-5
Good News Translation (GNT)
2 There the ((((((((((angel)))))))))))) of the Lord appeared to him as a flame coming from the middle of a bush. Moses saw that the bush was on fire but that it was not burning up. 3 “This is strange,” he thought. “Why isn't the bush burning up? I will go closer and see.”

4 When the Lord saw that Moses was coming closer, he called to him from the middle of the bush and said, “Moses! Moses!”

He answered, “Yes, here I am.”

5 God said, “Do not come any closer. Take off your sandals, because you are standing on holy ground.


Exodus 3:2-5
21st Century King James Version (KJ21)
2 And the (((((((((angel)))))))))) of the Lord appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush; and he looked and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.
3 And Moses said, “I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt.”
4 And when the Lord saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses.” And he said, “Here am I.”
5 And He said, “Draw not nigh hither. Put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.”



Exodus 3:2-5
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
2 The ((((((((((angel)))))))) of the Lord appeared to him in a blazing fire from the midst of [a]a bush; and he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, yet the bush was not consumed. 3 So Moses said, “[b]I must turn aside now and see this [c]marvelous sight, why the bush is not burned up.” 4 When the Lord saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!” And he said, “Here I am.” 5 Then He said, “Do not come near here; remove your sandals from your feet, for the place on which you are standing is holy ground.”


No where does it say Jehovah came down and talked directly to Moses in any scriptures. Perhaps if you'd actually read the scriptures you quote beforehand you may get a better idea of what is going on?

Originally posted by RJHinds
The Watchtower is the one making it up and they have made a fool out of you. Wise up before it is too late.

So you still worship Jesus? Did he ever tell you too? If so by what scripture do you base this? Just one will do.

Originally posted by galveston75
Exodus 3:2-5
Good News Translation (GNT)
2 There the ((((((((((angel)))))))))))) of the Lord appeared to him as a flame coming from the middle of a bush. Moses saw that the bush was on fire but that it was not burning up. 3 “This is strange,” he thought. “Why isn't the bush burning up? I will go closer and see.”

4 When the Lord saw that Moses was co ...[text shortened]... actually read the scriptures you quote beforehand you may get a better idea of what is going on?

Why do you stop and leave out verse 6? And if you read on you will see where this angel of the Lord type apparition of God tells Moses that He is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and gives Moses the name "I AM" to call Him. You know Him as "Jehovah" from this time on in your Bible.

Why do you not claim Jehovah is an angel then?

Originally posted by galveston75
So you still worship Jesus? Did he ever tell you too? If so by what scripture do you base this? Just one will do.

John 5:22-23

New King James Version (NKJV)

For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son, that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

Originally posted by RJHinds
John 5:22-23

New King James Version (NKJV)

[b]For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son, that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.[/b]

Where is the word "worship" there? Are you serious Ron?

You know lets just drop it. You see things that are not there and nothing I can do to help you with that issue. Do as you please,or as satan has his way with you. Quite amazing actually that he can have such influance on humans but he's the master of it...

Originally posted by galveston75
Where is the word "worship" there? Are you serious Ron?

You know lets just drop it. You see things that are not there and nothing I can do to help you with that issue. Do as you please,or as satan has his way with you. Quite amazing actually that he can have such influance on humans but he's the master of it...

Why do the JWs NWT translate the same Greek word (Strongs 4352) as "worship" in Mathew 4:9-10, but as "do obeisance in Matthew 2:2. 2:11, 14:33, 28:9, John 9:38, and Hebrews 1:16?

Why did they change the translation in the 1970 edition of the NWT of that Greek word in Hebrews 1:16 from "worship" to "do obeisance" in their 1980 edition of the NWT?

Look at the following link for the answer:

http://carm.org/heb-16-let-angels-do-obeisance-him

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
The Book of Revelation (12:7-9) describes a war in heaven in which Michael, being stronger, defeats Satan:[12]

"...there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven."

After the conflict, Satan is thrown to ea ...[text shortened]... 8][59]

what scriptural basis is therefore believing that Christ is also the archangel Michael

It won't matter what i say about my personal experiences, very few can relate to them. But for what it is worth, i know Micheal the Archangel. He is not Jesus. He is a servant of the Most High God.

Originally posted by RJHinds
Why do the JWs NWT translate the same Greek word (Strongs 4352) as "worship" in Mathew 4:9-10, but as "do obeisance in Matthew 2:2. 2:11, 14:33, 28:9, John 9:38, and Hebrews 1:16?

Why did they change the translation in the 1970 edition of the NWT of that Greek word in Hebrews 1:16 from "worship" to "do obeisance" in their 1980 edition of the NWT?

Look at the following link for the answer:

http://carm.org/heb-16-let-angels-do-obeisance-him

Where is the word "worship" there Ron as you say it is?

Originally posted by galveston75
Where is the word "worship" there Ron as you say it is?

Look at any translation other than the NWT and you will see the word "worship" in every verse I referenced. If you look at the 1970 edition and earlier of the NWT at Hebrews 1:16 you will also see the word "worship" there unless you are blind.

Originally posted by Pudgenik
It won't matter what i say about my personal experiences, very few can relate to them. But for what it is worth, i know Micheal the Archangel. He is not Jesus. He is a servant of the Most High God.

Precisely, there is zero reason to believe they are the same person, other than one's corporation overlords say one should. This is another reason man was given free will, to use his own reasoning power to make his own choice as to what he should believe.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
wow your ignorance is really showing, can you point to other instances in scripture where the exact same term means an act of worship, for i can demonstrate other instances where it means to bow down, do obeisance, Why when it comes to Jesus does it suddenly transform itself into an act of worship. I don't think you have any idea what you are talkin ...[text shortened]... ynei - knelt before him

why when it comes to Jesus does prosekynei become an act of worship?

Why then, when it comes to Jehovah, does "proskyneó" become an act of worship? (See Rev. 19:4.)

Why then, when it comes to the Beast, does "proskyneó" become an act of worship? (See Rev. 13:8-14:11.)


Why then, when it comes to Nebuchadnezzar's 'image of gold', does "proskyneó" become an act of worship? (Okay, I'll admit, I overstepped here, this is Aramaic. But the word, "segid", has the same meaning.) (See Daniel 3:5-18.)

Why then, when it comes to Satan, does "proskyneó" become an act of worship? (For clarification, see Luke 4:7.)




I think the word you are looking for here is "shachah", but then, that's not the word in the text, is it?

Originally posted by Suzianne
Why then, when it comes to Jehovah, does "proskyneó" become an act of worship? (See Rev. 19:4.)

Why then, when it comes to the Beast, does "proskyneó" become an act of worship? (See Rev. 13:8-14:11.)


Why then, when it comes to Nebuchadnezzar's 'image of gold', does "proskyneó" become an act of worship? (Okay, I'll admit, I overs ...[text shortened]... you are looking for here is "shachah", but then, that's not the word in the text, is it?

Because Jehovah is God and God deserves to be worshipped, forgive me but i thought everyone understood that.

No one is saying that proskyneó cannot be rendered as worship but as i gave demonstrated in the case of Jesus the only basis that you have is that its in connection with Jesus and as we now know Jesus exerts magical properties on nouns and verbs. As Galveston has admirably demonstrated there is not a single instance where Jesus directs anyone to worship him and as I have demonstrated to translate worship with reference to Jesus makes absolutely no sense in some instances, but that's nominal Christianity for you.

Originally posted by RJHinds
Look at any translation other than the NWT and you will see the word "worship" in every verse I referenced. If you look at the 1970 edition and earlier of the NWT at Hebrews 1:16 you will also see the word "worship" there unless you are blind.

Another logical fallacy and argumentum ad populum, its true because many people believe it to be true,

yawn, such an amateur take up baking fairy cakes.