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Originally posted by menace71
Manny[/b]
1 Thessalonians 4:16
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
Explain this ? The Lord himself ---then with the voice of the
First let me say that Hebrews is very clear that Jesus Christ the Son of God is not any of the three names angels in the Bible of whom it could be possibly asked "For to which of the angels ..." .
The answer to the rhetorical question is of course "To NO angel, has God said You are My Son ...". Hebrews 1:8 rules out Jesus being Michael, or Gabriel, or of course the Daystar [Lucifer].
This does not mean He could not be "the Angel of Jehovah" seen a number of places in the Old Testament before the birth of Jesus. And I said "a number of places" not in every place.
Secondly, I have never once ever considered that Paul was saying the voice of the archangel was the voice of the Lord Jesus in First Thessalonians 4:17.
1.) Verse 15 speaks of "the coming of the Lord" and not "the coming of the archangel."
2.) Verse 15 says "the word of the Lord" not "the word of the archangel."
3.) Verse 16 says "the Lord Himself" and not "the archangel himself".
4.) Verse 16 says "the dead in Christ will rise first" not "the dead in the archangel will rise first."
5.) Verse 17 says "we ... will be caught up together ... to meet the Lord" not "we ... will be caught up together ... to meet the archangel."
6.) Verse 17 says "thus we will always be with the Lord" not "thus we will always be with the archangel".
7.) Chapter 5 verse 2 continues saying "so the day of the Lord comes" not " so the day of the archangel comes."
Nothing else in the letter hints that an archangel is the center of attention.
The teachers who stress that 1 Thess. 4:17 identifies Christ as having an archangel's voice are stretching far to and wide to push their false teaching against God being incarnated in Christ.
On exceedingly scant and highly dubious exegesis some teachers have agreed to hang such a major doctrine - Jesus Christ is an archangel. Don't buy it.
Maybe it is not as it seems is what I'm saying for you only have several options here. Either it's Jesus and then the Archangel ....Or Jesus is this Archangel as it's in the same sentence. Why would Jesus need an Archangel to use its voice in place of His?? Maybe the way it is translated is what is hanging people up. The word angel does not necessary mean created being. It can mean messenger also. The Chief Messenger even in the case of Archangel
I would refer you to Revelation 14:14-16 where you have a sign signifying the very same event. The event of First Thessalonians 4:17 is seen in a sign, symbolically represented in this vision.
And you have Jesus Christ as the One like the Son of Man, and a speaking angel. The speaking angel's voice is heard but it is not the voice of the Son of Man.
Read it carefully:
"And I saw, and behold, there was a white cloud, and on the cloud One like the Son of Man sitting, having a golden crown on His head and a sharp sickle in His hand. (v.14)
And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, Send forth Your sickle and reap, for the hour to reap has come because the harvest of the earth is ripe. (v.15)
And He who sat on the cloud thrust His sickle upon the earth, and the earth was reaped." (v.16)
As you can plainly see the angel's voice is the angel's voice and the Son of Man doing the reaping is the Son of Man. They coordinate together as will myriads of other heavenly hosts.
Realize that the vision exactly represents the plain teaching of First Thess. 4:17 and the archangel's voice, though being heard, is not making Jesus Christ the archangel who is uttering the words.
And the Son of Man is not an archangel any more than God said to ANY angel "You are My Son, this day I have begotten You." (Heb 1:5)
Originally posted by sonshipI know what the book of Hebrews says that Jesus is above the angels I whole heartedly agree with the writer of Hebrews. I believe that Michael as referenced in the passages is none other than Jesus.
So then when the writer of the book of [b]Hebrews asks rhetorically in Hebrews 1:5 -
"For to which of the angels has He [God] ever said, 'You are My Son; this day I have begotten You' "
Your reply would be "To Michael the angel God said that."[/b]
Manny
In Thessalonians we see that the Lord is descending from heaven and He is shouting with the voice of the archangel. Most people seem to think that it is the archangel that is shouting and not Jesus. Actually there are two possible meanings to the text: (1) the archangel could be shouting for Jesus; or (2) Jesus could be doing the shouting Himself and he is using the voice of an archangel because He is the Archangel Himself; Michael the Archangel.
Some might think there is a third possibility, that two voices are sounding; Both Jesus and the archangel. however, if we look at verse 16 in the Greens Literal translation (below) we will see that this is probably not an option.
Because the Lord Himself shall come down from Heaven with a commanding shout of an archangel's voice, and with God's trumpet. And the dead in Christ will rise again first. Thessalonians 4:16 Greens Literal Translation
Now, for a good comparison, lets see what Christ said when He was on Earth.
Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. John 5:25-29
If we compare the two Bible texts above (1 Thessalonians 4:16 and John 5:25-28) we see one of the strongest cases for supporting the idea that Michael is Jesus.
Not my intellectual property taken from what I had posted way back in this thread
Manny
Originally posted by menace71What about Him descending from heaven with the trumpet of God? By your reasoning that would make Him both the archangel and God. Is that what you really mean?
1 Thessalonians 4:16
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
Explain this ? The Lord himself ---then with the voice of the
Maybe it is not as it seems is what I'm saying for you only have ...[text shortened]... being. It can mean messenger also. The Chief Messenger even in the case of Archangel
Manny
I believe it is wriiten somewhere else that the Lord comes back with His Holy angels. I believe this shout, voice of the archangel, and the trumpet of God just means it will be loud and not a secret when he comes back.
This may be the verse I was thinking about:
When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
(Matthew 25:31 KJV)
Originally posted by RJHindsWell who shouts ? Who uses the voice of the Archangel ? Who sounds the trumpet of God ? (The Shofar of God) ? I can prove that the word angel can mean and does mean more than just a created being I'm not sure why it was translated the way that it is in that passage.
What about Him descending from heaven with the trumpet of God? By your reasoning that would make Him both the archangel and God. Is that what you really mean?
I believe it is wriiten somewhere else that the Lord come back with His Holy angels. I believe this shout, voice of the archangel, and the trumpet of God just means it will be loud and not a secr ...[text shortened]... oly angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
(Matthew 25:31 KJV)[/b]
Manny
Originally posted by menace71How do you explain this verse if the Lord Jesus is the same as Michael the archangel?
In Thessalonians we see that the Lord is descending from heaven and He is shouting with the voice of the archangel. Most people seem to think that it is the archangel that is shouting and not Jesus. Actually there are two possible meanings to the text: (1) the archangel could be shouting for Jesus; or (2) Jesus could be doing the shouting Himself and he is ...[text shortened]...
Not my intellectual property taken from what I had posted way back in this thread
Manny
Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
(Jude 1:9 KJV)
Putting Joshua 5 and Revelation 12 together, we see that Joshua saw a man who identified Himself as the Captain of the host of the Lord. The man also encouraged Joshua to worship Him and in Joshua chapter 6, He is identified as being the Lord.
This agrees with the original meaning we had for Archangel: "chief of the angels". Thus, He is their commander, the Commander of the LORD'S army in Heaven, the army filled with God's angels.
So, this must be Michael the Archangel, the Captain of the host of the Lord, who is also the Lord! He is a divine being who accepts worship!
***not my intellectual property*** from the link I posted way back in this thread
Manny
I fully believe in the Deity of Christ it's funny though as soon as something slightly controversial is said .....People jump all over you. Paul said the wrangling over words and arguing is what would cause unbelievers to stay unbelievers. The Angel of the Lord in the old testament is God but people can twist that to mean whatever they want. I can prove it with scripture that The Angel of the Lord in the Old testament accepts and encourages worship of Himself so this would either make the bible faulty or The Angel of the Lord is God (Jesus actually)
Manny
Originally posted by robbie carrobieIt makes no sense to say that Jesus was the First Created Being and then to say that Jesus is the one who has created everything in both Heaven and Earth. If He did not create Himself then He definitely did not create everything! These ideas are mutually exclusive. It is only when we begin to understand what verse 15 is actually saying that we can say: Yes indeed; Jesus has existed before the creation process actually began and He ranks higher than all created things. Then it makes perfect sense to say that: ". by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth".
Please answer the question, why does the Bible say that Jesus is part OF the creation and you say he is not.
your insults will be ignored.
About Colossians 1:15
Manny
Originally posted by menace71Don't think I am jumping all over you. I agree with what you just posted here. However. I do not believe that the Lord Jesus is also Michael the archangel. I believe Michael is the Chief General of the army of angels against Satan and his army of demon angels. I believe the Lord Jesus is the Commander in Chief, like the President of the United States or the King, over God's army of angel that includes the General, Michael.
I fully believe in the Deity of Christ it's funny though as soon as something slightly controversial is said .....People jump all over you. Paul said the wrangling over words and arguing is what would cause unbelievers to stay unbelievers. The Angel of the Lord in the old testament is God but people can twist that to mean whatever they want. I can prove it ...[text shortened]... is would either make the bible faulty or The Angel of the Lord is God (Jesus actually)
Manny
He is the image of the invisible God; his is the primacy over all created things. Colossians 1:1 New English Bible
He is the image of the invisible God; his is the primacy over all creation. Colossians 1:15 The Revised English Bible
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him NASB
The Idea of the First Born is for example from the Old Testament Esa was the first Born but Jacob inherited the rights of the first born it has nothing to do with birth order here but with the rights. Christ has the rights of the first born over all of creation. He has inherited the authority of the first born this is not that He was the first born creature. The logic in this verse does not follow if we apply that Jesus was a created being.
Manny