09 Nov 08
Originally posted by NemesioIf something is unconditional, then it matters little as to whether you accept it or not because the matter is not up for discussion, rather, the choice has been made for you.
No. I could still refuse it. But I have to accept the gift.
[b]That's a work. The accepting is a work that is required for salvation. So, you believe in a
works-based system after all, you just define it as a single work. Jesus, of course, defined it as
perpetual work.
Nemesio[/b]
Now if you are suggesting that reaching out in faith is a work and this is required for salvation then I would agree. In fact, faith is THE requirment throughout the Bible. It only then comes down to having faith in what God has said about certain things. Of course, such terms as "works" and "faith" often become intermingled and confusing.
09 Nov 08
1 edit
Originally posted by whodey
If something is unconditional, then it matters little as to whether you accept it or not because the matter is not up for discussion, rather, the choice has been made for you.
No. Let's say I buy you a gift. And, the day I meet you, I give it to you. I don't do so for any
other reason than because I can. There is no condition which will compel me to revoke this
gift, nor any condition that you've met (except for existing) for my desiring to give it to you.
You can still refuse the gift. It's a two-way street. I have made the choice to give it to you.
You have to make the choice to accept or reject it.
Now if you are suggesting that reaching out in faith is a work and this is required for salvation then I would agree. In fact, faith is THE requirment throughout the Bible. It only then comes down to having faith in what God has said about certain things. Of course, such terms as "works" and "faith" often become intermingled and confusing.
If faith is a requirement for receiving the gift, then the gift is not free.
If faith is a requirement for accepting the gift, then the gift can still be free.
So, the question is: Once accepted, can you subsequently reject it?
JosephW would have us believe that there is a discrete moment in time where one says, 'Yes,'
and there's no 'givesies backsies.' You simply say, 'I accept' and there's no more requirements
for the rest of your life.
This sounds absurd if we talk about God being a 'God of Justice.' Furthermore, it basically
invalidates Jesus' commands where He defines what belief is: to love others as God loves others.
And, since loving others is a life-long activity, there is no discrete moment in time where one
'believes' and 'is saved,' since at any future moment, one can stop believing by stopping loving.
Notwithstanding the recorded words attributed to Jesus, JosephW would have us believe that it's
actually very easy to get into heaven; just say and feel the magic words when you're 20, and
you can party until you drop.
Let me ask you this: Jesus taught that the kingdom of heaven is difficult to obtain, that there
are many obstacles, barriers, and temptations, that the gate is narrow, so to speak. Just on gut
reaction, which sounds more plausible: that salvation through belief is as easy as snapping your
fingers, or salvation through belief entails a lifetime of service?
Nemesio
09 Nov 08
1 edit
Originally posted by NemesioI ask this question some time ago and I eventually prodded them until they answered .. its YES. Still saved, no matter what you do. Its just that your place in the kindgom will be a 'lowly one'.
Originally posted by josephw
[b]If you have trusted in what Christ has done for you on the cross, that He died for your sins, then you have been sealed by the Holy Spirit and have the Spirit of Christ in you and you are now a new creature.
Sorry if this disappoints you, but once one receives the free gift of eternal life, God isn't taking it back. verything else but I'm still saved? A 'yes' or 'no' answer will
suffice.
Nemesio[/b]
09 Nov 08
Originally posted by NemesioI could explain your error on this if you so wish. Would you like me to?
No. I could still refuse it. But I have to accept the gift.
[b]That's a work. The accepting is a work that is required for salvation. So, you believe in a
works-based system after all, you just define it as a single work. Jesus, of course, defined it as
perpetual work.
Nemesio[/b]
09 Nov 08
Originally posted by chappy1Yes , this is one of the key verses in this debate. The activity of the Holy Spirit. Once a person has opened themselves up to the Spirit then God will not let go. It's a but like being hooked onto a rope via a harness , once one allows the rope to be attached then one can be tossed by many storms but the link is still there , only consciously unhooking oneself can destroy this link.
If you are not always saved once you believe then would someone please explain the following?
And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who ar ...[text shortened]... e of his glory. Ephesians 1: 13-14
I would say that a guarantee is a guarantee! Am I right?
09 Nov 08
Originally posted by Nemesiowhich sounds more plausible: that salvation through belief is as easy as snapping your
Originally posted by whodey
[b]If something is unconditional, then it matters little as to whether you accept it or not because the matter is not up for discussion, rather, the choice has been made for you.
No. Let's say I buy you a gift. And, the day I meet you, I give it to you. I don't do so for any
other reason than because I can. The ...[text shortened]... , or salvation through belief entails a lifetime of service?
Nemesio[/b]
fingers, or salvation through belief entails a lifetime of service?
----------------Nemesio----------------------
You miss the point entirely. A snapping one's finger's type of belief is not actually belief if it's not followed up by a lifestyle to match. If someone does actually believe they will be striving to live accordingly.
No-one here is saying that "saying the magic words" and then sinning your brains out is going to get you saved. You are hearing some concept that only exists in your head.
09 Nov 08
Originally posted by knightmeisterwhat about Judas Iscariot, was not he once one of Christs twelve apostles and then betrayed him, also the scriptures speak of god withdrawing his spirit, as in the case of king Saul.
Yes , this is one of the key verses in this debate. The activity of the Holy Spirit. Once a person has opened themselves up to the Spirit then God will not let go. It's a but like being hooked onto a rope via a harness , once one allows the rope to be attached then one can be tossed by many storms but the link is still there , only consciously unhooking oneself can destroy this link.
09 Nov 08
Originally posted by NemesioI see. I was thinking you were implying that one did not have the option of accepting the gift. If it is not an option, it simply is not a gift.
Originally posted by whodey
[b]If something is unconditional, then it matters little as to whether you accept it or not because the matter is not up for discussion, rather, the choice has been made for you.
No. Let's say I buy you a gift. And, the day I meet you, I give it to you. I don't do so for any
other reason than because I can. The ...[text shortened]...
gift, nor any condition that you've met (except for existing) for my desiring to give it to you.
09 Nov 08
Originally posted by robbie carrobieI would say that those two individuals conscientiously unhooked. Right?
what about Judas Iscariot, was not he once one of Christs twelve apostles and then betrayed him, also the scriptures speak of god withdrawing his spirit, as in the case of king Saul.
09 Nov 08
Originally posted by chappy1yes and god withdrew his spirit and in the case of the former, he became a son of destruction, so i would say therefore that it must be possible to be a recipient of holy spirit and for god to withdraw his spirit giving credence to that fact that once saved, not always saved!
I would say that those two individuals conscientiously unhooked. Right?
09 Nov 08
3 edits
Originally posted by NemesioI would say that God's requirement throughout the Bible is faith regarding ALL matters, so I guess the question is, can one lose their faith? Placing ones faith in another in and of itself is a form of acceptance or rejection, therefore, I suppose you could argue that this could change at some point.
No. Let's say I buy you a gift. And, the day I meet you, I give it to you. I don't do so for any
other reason than because I can. There is no condition which will compel me to revoke this
gift, nor any condition that you've met (except for existing) for my desiring to give it to you.
You can still refuse the gift. It's a two-way street. I hav , or salvation through belief entails a lifetime of service?
Nemesio[/b]
Having said that, I try not to get to wrapped up in the once saved always saved debate, however, there are warnings regarding losing ones faith that should be heeded. Christ's parable about the sower and the seeds is a prime example. In the parable we see the word of God that comes to each one of us individually, which is necessary for ones faith to be initiated. There are those who immediatly reject the word of God because they do not understand it, there are those who recieve it but later allow the pleasures of this life/riches of this life choke it to death, and there are those who accept it with joy for a time but have no root in them so that when tribulation/persecution arise their faith is snuffed out. But then there are those who accept the word with a pure heart and endure sufferings/tribulations etc, and produce much fruit. This, of course, is according to Matthew 13.
So am I taking a position on the whole once saved always saved debate? No, rather, I am merely saying that one need only to have faith in what God has already told us, whatever that may be so we need not worry about such things. Perhaps you may think me as one ducking the whole debate by not taking a dogmatic position, however, it is not me to decide, so why should I put words in the Almighty's mouth? All I know is what God has said regarding the matter which is he stands knocking at the door of our hearts and it is up to us to let him in. Now as far as us kicking him out after we let him in, that is between them and their God.
09 Nov 08
1 edit
Originally posted by knightmeisterLet's say I'm twenty, and I believe and live the accordant lifestyle (whatever you define the
You miss the point entirely. A snapping one's finger's type of belief is not actually belief if it's not followed up by a lifestyle to match. If someone does actually believe they will be striving to live accordingly.
criteria for belief and faith to be) for five years.
At twenty-five, I become tempted and decide that hedonism is more fulfilling.
I live to be seventy-five, and never repent.
So, what of my salvation?
Nemesio
09 Nov 08
1 edit
Originally posted by NemesioIt is possible the hypothetical individual in question was never a genuine part of the body of Christ to begin with. Note 1 John 2:19:
Let's say I'm twenty, and I believe and live the accordant lifestyle (whatever you define the
criteria for belief and faith to be) for five years.
At twenty-five, I become tempted and decide that hedonism is more fulfilling.
I live to be seventy-five, and never repent.
So, what of my salvation?
Nemesio
"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us."
The manifestation of "unsavedness", if you will, is precisely that "they went out from us."
"Birds of a feather flock together," essentially.
09 Nov 08
2 edits
Originally posted by NemesioBetter yet, what of the disciple Judas? He walked with Jesus and seemed to do all "the right things" yet he fell. Do you think he truly believed or never did to begin with?
Let's say I'm twenty, and I believe and live the accordant lifestyle (whatever you define the
criteria for belief and faith to be) for five years.
At twenty-five, I become tempted and decide that hedonism is more fulfilling.
I live to be seventy-five, and never repent.
So, what of my salvation?
Nemesio