Original Righteousness

Originally posted by ahosyney
The problem is that Jesus didn't say any of that. He said he is a man and just a prophet to return Jews to the GOD way. All what you said is concolusions and you cann't prove any of it from your Bible.

Your words are very good but doesn't make sense because they are human made and represents only their writter opinion.


I asked you before in another ...[text shortened]... u want anyone to belive any of what you say you have to show the authenticity of your source.

ahosney,

I remember your question about worship. But I do not remember which thread it was on. If you can tell me where we had that discussion perhaps I will address that question there.

In this thread you say that Jesus did not teach anything of what His Apostle Paul taught. I do not believe this for a moment because His apostles carried on the same work and teaching as the Lord Jesus. They did not originate anything of themselves.

Now here is one place where what Paul teaches He derived from Christ who sent him to be an apostle:

"And He took a cup and gave thanks, and He gave it to them, saying, Drink of it, all of you, For this is My blood of the covenant, which is being poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins." (Matt. 26:27,28)

Before His crucifixion He conducted His last supper to demonstrate that the pouring out of His blood was a redemptive death for man's forgiveness. This was the basis of the "new covenant" (Luke 22:20) God was making with mankind.

And the Apostle Paul echoed the same teaching in different words:

" ... so also it was through the righteous act unto justification of life to all men ... so also through the obedience of the One the many will be constituted righteous" (See Rom. 5:17,18)

And again: "For if we, being enemies, were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more we will be saved in His life, having been reconciled" (Rom. 8:10)


Jesus taught that His death was the new covenant in His blood for the forgiveness of sins. And Paul His apostle followed Him to teach that we are reconciled to God through the death of His Son.

ahosney, you are ignorant of what the Bible teaches. You should stop bluffing and pretending with great pretention that you can teach some of us what is in the Bible. You don't know it. And what you do know you have presented in a twisted way.

Originally posted by jaywill
ahosney,

I remember your question about worship. But I do not remember which thread it was on. If you can tell me where we had that discussion perhaps I will address that question there.

In this thread you say that Jesus did not teach anything of what His Apostle Paul taught. I do not believe this for a moment because His apostles carried on the he Bible. You don't know it. And what you do know you have presented in a twisted way.

For my questions they are two , one found in this thread,

http://www.redhotpawn.com/board/showthread.php?threadid=56127&page=2

And the other one doesn't depend on a thread, it is simply who was the writer of the Bible?

I don't claim anything for myself. I'm just reading the Bible from another point of view other than yours. There is no difference between you and me in this matter because the method you use to interpret the words of the Bible is almost the same. Except that I stick to the direct meaning of the words, and you give the words meaning which is not there according to your belives. So actually you are the one who try to twist the meaning.

I don't claim that I'm a scholar of the Bible, I'm just a reader. If you don't like the way I read the Bible just you have to prove I'm wrong. Don't excpect me to accept all what you say because you said it.


Any way in your answer, you clearified my point: Most of what Christians belive today is not a doctrines of Jesus, or not said by Jesus himself.

For example, you said "what His Apostle Paul taught", is Paul a student of Jesus? Did he take his teaching directly from Jesus? Did he follow the doctrins of Jesus?

I don't mind to accept his teachings but you have to prove to me that he is an Apostle.

Originally posted by ahosyney
For my questions they are two , one found in this thread,

http://www.redhotpawn.com/board/showthread.php?threadid=56127&page=2

And the other one doesn't depend on a thread, it is simply who was the writer of the Bible?

I don't claim anything for myself. I'm just reading the Bible from another point of view other than yours. There is no difference b on't mind to accept his teachings but you have to prove to me that he is an Apostle.

It is more than that you have a different style of reading of the Bible. It is that you come to it with ideas already firmly in place. These ideas have been planted into your thought by the Quran. You come to the Bible to find confirmation for the Quran.


You read the Bible through the lense of your Muslim Quran in order to build up rational for Islam's teachings.

You cut the lines of explanations which are plainly there in the Bible shedding light on its various sections. This is to seek to slice up and divide the parts from one another in the hope that this will reduce the clarity and impact of its unified teaching.

If you come to the Bible with a firm conviction that Jesus never died then all things in the Bible built upon this truth you will refuse to believe. If you do not believe that the Bible speaks the truth about His death of course you will not accept anything it says about His resurrection.

If you do not believe in His death and resurrection you will fail to understand anything built upon His heavenly ministry or His activity after His ascension and enthronement at the right hand of God. Therefore , post resurrection appearances to Saul of Tarsus will be rejected by you. If you do not believe that the resurrected Christ appeared to Saul of Tarsus you of course will not accept the comission and appointment of Saul (Paul) into Christ's apostleship.

You have what the New Testament calls "a system of error". It is not just a different style of reading. It is a whole "system" of lies built upon your rejection of the Bible in place of your devotion to the Moslem Quran. I don't know how much hope there is for you because in essense you are brainwashed to derive Quranic concepts from the Christian Bible.

There is another trick which you employ which you may think I do not see. But I see it. When you proclaim that you believe the teaching of Jesus you really mean that you are only opened to the direct quotations. Some Bibles have the so called "words of Jesus" in red letters. The surrounding comments of the evangelists are in black letters. What you are trying to do is onlytake seriously the "red letters" and count the rest as error, mistakes, corrutpions from the apostles.

For one thing it would be quite easy to demonstrate that you really don't accept the red letters. Quite a few of the direct quotations of Jesus you simply would not accept because of thier contradiction to Islam. Secondly, true believers regard the commentary of His apostles to be ALSO the teaching of Christ. That is WHY they are APOSTLES. They have been sent by Him to carry on His teaching.

Not only would you reject the resurrection and present heavenly ministry of Christ. You also see nothing of His indwelling of His disciples as the "life giving Spirit". This revelation is not built upon 1 Cor. 15:45 alone. It is firmly established by the direct quotations of Jesus in chapters 14 through 17 of the gospel of John.

Probably also you have some rationals why John's gospel is not to be taken seriously.


But our God is the God of eternal encouragement and good hope in Christ Jesus. So even though I said I had no hope for your twistings, I do have hope in God's mercy. I have hope in our prayers for you and God's great mercy.


Perhaps someday, you will stop looking for Islam and the Quran in the pages of the Bible.

Originally posted by jaywill
It is more than that you have a different style of reading of the Bible. It is that you come to it with ideas already firmly in place. These ideas have been planted into your thought by the Quran. You come to the Bible to find confirmation for the Quran.


You read the Bible through the lense of your Muslim Quran in order to build up rational for Islam's meday, you will stop looking for Islam and the Quran in the pages of the Bible.

You are exactly doing the same thing. You are reading the Bible according your faith. You belive in something and you want to prove it from the Bible. I belive in something and I try to prove it from the Bible, the problem is that my Job is much easier than you.

I belive that GOD is one, not componsed of parts, doesn't have a son, and he is only one. You belive in trinity.

For me it is easy to find , that in each part of the Bible GOD declared that he is one, doesn't change. Without my Islamic view it is easy to see it. But if you try to do the same , you need your faith, without your faith you will not find the trinity in the Bible.

I belive that Jesus is a man. And you belive he is GOD.

If I want to prove he is a man from the Bible , it is an easy Job , he said several times he is a man,I don't need my faith to see it, but if you want to prove he is a GOD, you have to back to your faith to prove it from the words of the Bible because Jesus didn't say it.

I belive that Jesus is a Prophet sent with a message from GOD, you belive he is the son of GOD and part of the trinity.

It will be easy for me to prove that he is a prophet because he said several times, I don't need my faith, but it will be hard for you prove that his divinity because he didn't talk about the trinity. And the trinity is not mentioned in the Bible, you have to go back to your faith to make the words say what you belive.

I belive that there is no Original Sin, I belive we are not born sinfull, I belive that Jesus didn't come to save me, and only my acts will save me. You belive in the Original Sin, and Jesus is your saviour.

If I want to see my point, I will not find the Original Sin in the Bible, and I will find scripture that say I don't carry the sin of my fathre, and I will find that Jesus didn't talk about that.

But you have to go to your faith to prove it.

In summary, your understanding of the Bible is based on your faith. It should be the Bible who prove your faith. If you are not able to prove your faith according to the Bible then you faith is not correct.

I don't need the Bible to read Islam, Islam is so clear and is not questionable. You need to find Christianity in the Bible.

You said that you will pray for me , I wonder how will your pray looks like, I will pray to you too. I will bow to my GOD who I worship , the only GOD, and ask his to lead you to the truth.



Note: You didn't answer my question about Jesus and worshiping GOD.

Originally posted by ahosyney
You are exactly doing the same thing. You are reading the Bible according your faith. You belive in something and you want to prove it from the Bible. I belive in something and I try to prove it from the Bible, the problem is that my Job is much easier than you.

I belive that GOD is one, not componsed of parts, doesn't have a son, and he is only one. You ...[text shortened]... the truth.



Note: You didn't answer my question about Jesus and worshiping GOD.

How does one quote a portion of the previous post in sections, each section followed by a reply?

Originally posted by ahosyney
You are exactly doing the same thing. You are reading the Bible according your faith. You belive in something and you want to prove it from the Bible. I belive in something and I try to prove it from the Bible, the problem is that my Job is much easier than you.

I belive that GOD is one, not componsed of parts, doesn't have a son, and he is only one. You the truth.



Note: You didn't answer my question about Jesus and worshiping GOD.

There is two big subjects to discuss here at least. Perhaps three huge subjects.

The authorship of the Bible.

The nature of salvation.

The Triune God.

This medium of limited posts could never adaquately deal with such large subjects in the space provided. Maybe a few things can be said about one matter right now.

Which of the three big subjects would you most like me to comment on? I would prefer the one you think is most related to the subject matter of "Original Righteousness."

Originally posted by jaywill
There is two big subjects to discuss here at least. Perhaps three huge subjects.

The authorship of the Bible.

The nature of salvation.

The Triune God.

This medium of limited posts could never adaquately deal with such large subjects in the space provided. Maybe a few things can be said about one matter right now.

Which of the three big su ...[text shortened]... ld prefer the one you think is most related to the subject matter of "Original Righteousness."

What is your intent on this debate with him? You do know there is absolutely nothing for either of you to gain. Why can't you two just play a game of chess and let each other be.

Originally posted by kirksey957
What is your intent on this debate with him? You do know there is absolutely nothing for either of you to gain. Why can't you two just play a game of chess and let each other be.

I think you are right. I don't know if he wants to play chess.

Originally posted by kirksey957
What is your intent on this debate with him? You do know there is absolutely nothing for either of you to gain. Why can't you two just play a game of chess and let each other be.

Wait a second, my be he want to be a Muslim 🙂

Originally posted by ahosyney
Wait a second, my be he want to be a Muslim 🙂

Better stick to a game of chess.

Originally posted by kirksey957
Better stick to a game of chess.

I'm waiting for him to see what he will say :-)

But , why not, he may lose the chess game, but what will he lose if he became a Muslim.

Originally posted by ahosyney
I'm waiting for him to see what he will say :-)

But , why not, he may lose the chess game, but what will he lose if he became a Muslim.

It shouldn't hurt his chess game.

Originally posted by kirksey957
It shouldn't hurt his chess game.

And it will not hurt him if he became a muslim.

Do you know what Jesus ment by salvation (if he really talked about it)?

It is to become a muslim..

If he became a Muslim he will worship GOD. He will do so the way GOD wanted from him. He will follow what Jesus really want from him. And he will have the ETERNAL LIFE as Jesus defined it.

Originally posted by ahosyney
I think you are right. I don't know if he wants to play chess.

lol. Sure I'll play a chess game or two with you.


I've kept you waiting about worship too long. Briefly let me talk about it.

Take prayer for instance. It is excellent to have a specific time to pray. And as the Moslem's dicilpine to do it three times a day. That is very good.

However, in the New Testament we are taught to pray without stopping. That means to be always in a state of moment by moment touching the Spirit like breathing.

So worship really expands in the Christian life to be a continual matter. I do not say this can be arrived at soon. But with maturity worship takes place while doing many mundane things like working or tending to menial duties. We are to be constantly in touch with the Lord Jesus.

This of course does not negate the need to have specific times of reading, praying, singing, either collectively or individually. When we leave the meeting we are to continue to walk in the Spirit of God. So worship is to be continual and constant.

Even in my sleep I sometimes worship. In my dreams I sometimes call on the name of Jesus. This worship is living.

Does this address your question about proper worship?

The discipline of specific times to pray, as is taught in Islam, is profitable. It is very good. It is good as long as it is not a mechanical ritual.

If in your placing your face to the earth before God three times a day but you are unforgiving and resentful toward your wife, then that worship is vain. The posture means nothing in that case. The form means nothing in that case.

So worship and living must become one in the one who would abide in Christ and God would abide in him.

I played SALADIN chess. He's Moslem too. I can't beat him yet. But I think I will soon.

Originally posted by jaywill
lol. Sure I'll play a chess game or two with you.


I've kept you waiting about worship too long. Briefly let me talk about it.

Take prayer for instance. It is excellent to have a specific time to pray. And as the Moslem's dicilpine to do it three times a day. That is very good.

However, in the New Testament we are taught to pray withou ...[text shortened]...

I played SALADIN chess. He's Moslem too. I can't beat him yet. But I think I will soon.

ok I will start a game with you :-)

I think you need to have more information about worship in Islam.

First of all Muslims have 5 prayers a day, not 3. The unit of prayer called in arabic (Rakaa) , each contains reading Quran, one kneeling and two bowings. In total there are 17 Rakaa in the 5 prayers

So in total a muslim kneel 17,and 34 bows. This is the minimum required prayer. The muslim can pray as much as he can.

I don't know if you tryed to bow to GOD before but it is really a different feeling. A feeling of direct relation ship with your creator. So you can talk to him. That is what the prophet taught us, "The muslim is closer to his GOD when he bows"

But that is not the only type of worship. There are fasting, Zakat (Charity), and pilgrimage. In each type of worship there is an obligatory part and optional part (Sunnah).

That is not every thing,the muslim is taught to remember Allah (GOD) in every moment of his life. He can make any thing he do in his life a worship. The prophet Muhammed asked us to remember Allah and worship him in each moment of this life (I think that is the type of worship you do). I can tell you I consider my talking with you now a worship.

So worship is not just to do what you think is good, but is to submit yourself to Allah and do what he want you to do.

See in the Chess Board