Original Righteousness

Originally posted by jaywill

If you recall I spoke of positional righteousness and dispositional righteousness. When I said I know thousands of Christians who are living righteous lives I meant dispositionally righteous lives.

That means they have not just repented and placed in a righteous standing before God although their character has not been transformed yet. I have meet
So there is no contradiction between what I have written and the verses which you point to.[/b]

This was a particularly bad typo of mine. It made the exact opposite point I intended to make:

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The Christians grow according to the enlightenment in their conscience. We do not expect a person to become mature as soon as they are regenerated and placed into a righteous position as justified ones before God. We expect that as the light grows and the believer obeys deeper and deeper conviction in the conscience, growth occurs.
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We Christians DO expect every believer to be placed in a righteous position before God as soon as they are born of God.

We Christians DO NOT expect that many will instantaneously grow to maturity.

A baby is not full grown the minute it is born. And a spiritual baby is also not an mature adult the moment they are born again. Growth in dispositional righteousness through sanctification is a life long process.

Originally posted by snowinscotland
Are you saying that your six words are not the start of a process similar to one which happened many years ago, where MAN wrote down a lot of things, including social comment, wisdom re humans and human interaction, and over many years developed what is now known as 'theology' where all sort of complex explainations were developed and held to be 'the ...[text shortened]... l the unbeliever!'

No?

Well take a close look at history, my friend.

I suspect that there's an unstated point that you'd like to make. Just say it 🙂

Originally posted by jaywill
[b]"Deny thyself and follow the Father."

Would you mind terribly to quote that passage exactly?

Is this what you mean?

"Then JESUS said to His disciples, If anyone wants to come after ME, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow ME." (Matt. 16:24) [my emphasis][/b]

This wasn't intended to be a quote of a passage, though the wording is drawn in part from the source you cite.

Originally posted by jaywill
Justification is to be declared righteous by God according to His standard of righteousness. The forgiven sinner is placed in Christ. Christ is not only a Person. Christ is a place. He is a righteous place. In Christ as the propitiation place a sinner is declared righteous by God according to God's standard of righteousness.

No one can condemn. God has t ...[text shortened]... to dispositionally transform that person by dispensing His Spirit into them for sanctification.

You seem to be missing the point. I don't think one can say someone is 'living righteously' until that person is actually living in a righteous manner. Being postitionally righteous appears to fall short of that.

right·eous
adjective

Definition:
1. strictly observant of morality: always behaving according to a religious or moral code
2. justifiable: considered to be correct or justifiable
3. responding to injustice: arising from the perception of great injustice or wrongdoing

Originally posted by jaywill
I still don't think you have answered my question about who the Father is.

Do you mean the Father of all mankind? Are you a Universalist? C'mon and unfurl your flag.

Are you hiding out waiting for an opportune time to pounce down with it?

Bahai? Unitarian? Universalist? Your own tailored designed beliefs?

What "Father" are you refering to?

"Father" was for your benefit.

I'm not looking to "pounce". Why can't we just be seeking Truth?

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
I suspect that there's an unstated point that you'd like to make. Just say it 🙂

I'm probably still trying to work it out... 🙂

I'm looking more closely at history and I'm struggling to find any organised belief system that does not oppress others; perhaps you can help.

Perhaps those chaps who believed there was a spaceship following a comet and topped themselves to get there didn't hurt others? Were they 'rightous' dudes?

Originally posted by snowinscotland
I'm probably still trying to work it out... 🙂

I'm looking more closely at history and I'm struggling to find any organised belief system that does not oppress others; perhaps you can help.

Perhaps those chaps who believed there was a spaceship following a comet and topped themselves to get there didn't hurt others? Were they 'rightous' dudes?

I don't know if finding a belief system that does not oppress others is as much of a problem as finding a belief system where the 'believers' actually follow the system 🙂 Come to think of it, it may also depend on what you mean by oppress.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
You seem to be missing the point. I don't think one can say someone is 'living righteously' until that person is actually living in a righteous manner. Being postitionally righteous appears to fall short of that.

right·eous
adjective

Definition:
1. strictly observant of morality: always behaving according to a religious or moral code
2. jus ...[text shortened]... ble
3. responding to injustice: arising from the perception of great injustice or wrongdoing

I think that the first step in man's departure from innocence to a state of guiltiness before God was taken in distrusting God. Disbelief led to the fall of man. Conversely the point is made that belief is the first step in justification.

"And he [Abraham] believed Jehovah, and He accounted it to him as righteousness" (Genesis 15:6)

The belief of Abram [Abraham] in the promise of God, was counted by God as righteousness. Abraham was therefore justified by faith in God as a first step in his transformation.

We are latter told in the book of Hebrews that without faith it is impossible to be well pleasing to God (Hebrews 11:6).

Originally posted by jaywill
Do you ever feel like you are not loved for who you are?

To be honest, I am not too bothered about whether I am loved for whom I am or not.

Originally posted by Pawnokeyhole
To be honest, I am not too bothered about whether I am loved for whom I am or not.

Neither am I bothered by whether I could be deluded or not. The possibility of deception coming out of the mouth of Jesus Christ, I think, is nill.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
I don't know if finding a belief system that does not oppress others is as much of a problem as finding a belief system where the 'believers' actually follow the system 🙂 Come to think of it, it may also depend on what you mean by oppress.

... perhaps we are all too caught up in our 'humanity' to see where what we do oppresses others, or is not truely 'righteous'.

Do you think that we are entitled to oppress anyone under any circumstances?

Originally posted by snowinscotland
... perhaps we are all too caught up in our 'humanity' to see where what we do oppresses others, or is not truely 'righteous'.

Do you think that we are entitled to oppress anyone under any circumstances?

Once again, it might depend on what you see as oppressive. For some, not being able to freely use recreational drugs might seem oppressive.

I guess I think of it as people being self-centered rather than 'too caught up in our humanity'. I'd be surprised if most don't see it. They just don't care because they get what they want.