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07 Aug 14
4 edits
Originally posted by robbie carrobieThis was your first quotation.
it remains the constant reason for the legalise rejecting justification by faith.
Do you see the word "legalize"? I said that that does not look like something I wrote. Therefore I asked you to cut and paste.
Here is your second supposed quotataion.
remains the constant reason for the legalist rejecting justification by faith.
So it was not I who did not know what I typed. It was you who misquoted and seemed to have corrected without an honorable acknowledgment of your misquote.
08 Aug 14
Rajk,
If you think that you love your neighbors, then why do you criticize in the unloving way that you do it?
Do you want people to type criticism to you. Is that why you criticize others? Where is the love that you are supposed to give? I find failure in you to love your neighbor as yourself. However, if you do not love yourself the way you should, then quit criticizing with sarcastic insults anyway.
Lastly, don't ever depend on your good works to get you to heaven. The bible shows that you and I were born sinners. You will never be good enough to go to heaven, and neither will I. Chri9st is the Savior, not good works.
Originally posted by sonshipsorry i refuse to reason with brain dead zombies who insist that people read their posts but ignore the entire content of others on some trumped up pretext. The quotations mean exactly the same thing. Rajk is correct, you really are a moron.
This was your first quotation.
it remains the constant reason for the legalise rejecting justification by faith.
Do you see the word "legalize"? I said that that does not look like something I wrote. Therefore I asked you to cut and paste.
Here is your second supposed quotataion.
[quote]
remains the constant reason for ...[text shortened]... who misquoted and seemed to have corrected without an honorable acknowledgment of your misquote.
Originally posted by KingOnPointthere is no love if you are using the sacrifice of the Christ as an inducement to sin as jaywill and others seem to be advocating with their anti Christians standards of all you need is faith. No faith is not all you need, you need to comply with Christian standards of morality and one of those standards is that you have a faith that is evident through some kind of works, otherwise, your faith is dead and useless and you would be as well as joining a tennis club or a chess club.
Rajk,
If you think that you love your neighbors, then why do you criticize in the unloving way that you do it?
Do you want people to type criticism to you. Is that why you criticize others? Where is the love that you are supposed to give? I find failure in you to love your neighbor as yourself. However, if you do not love yourself the way you sho ...[text shortened]... ever be good enough to go to heaven, and neither will I. Chri9st is the Savior, not good works.
I think the reason for the number of 'workless', Christians is the clergy laity divide that exists, this was never the intention nor the practice from Christianities inception, but it has bred generations of 'workless', Christians intent to sit and listen to a sermon on a Sunday and nothing else. The consequence of this are profound, for without some tangible outlet for faith, its impossible to exercise it and if one does not exercise it, like a muscle, it simply becomes weak and inept.
The whole assertion that RajK is using a legalistic approach and trying some kind of justification by works is nonsense and essentially a lie, for he understands that life is a free gift which no amount of works or faith will justify. I really wish you and others would stop projecting false values onto him for the sake of argument.
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08 Aug 14
4 edits
Originally posted by robbie carrobieI don't want to talk to you anyway.
sorry i refuse to reason with brain dead zombies who insist that people read their posts but ignore the entire content of others on some trumped up pretext. The quotations mean exactly the same thing. Rajk is correct, you really are a moron.
You refuse to reason well - period.
" the legalise rejecting of justification" is not what I wrote and it is not the same meaning as "the legalist rejecting justification".
To legalise rejecting is not the same as A legalist rejecting.
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08 Aug 14
Originally posted by checkbaiter
Luke 22 shows us an example of someone who had faith and pleased God. In verses 31 and 32 Jesus is talking to Peter before the crucifixion. "And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren." Peter did blow it tremendously. He denied the Lord three times. He cursed and blasphemed God, and yet Jesus prayed that his faith wouldn't fail. Jesus' prayers were always answered. Peter's actions failed, but not his faith. If Peter hadn't repented it would have killed him. He was restored to God and went on to become a pillar of the church.
This was a good point. There are plenty of instances, we all should know, of saints of God having failures, shortcomings, sins, being defeated, etc. Peter as the virtual leading disciple left us many examples.
What then is the error of the Arminianist? It is that the only answer God has for these lapses is the lost of eternal life.
Throughout the New Testament there are warnings to believers, both in the gospels and in the epistles. Most degraded Christianity does not take these warnings very seriously.
There are those like Rajk999, however, that go to the other extreme. All these warnings are warnings, to him, of the lost of eternal life. So that view is rightly called an elevator salvation - assured this moment because of good behavior but denied the next moment because of a failure.
I labored months ago on probably more than one thread on the Dispensational Reward and Punishment of the Millennial kingdom (though that was not the formal name).
Nothing got through to Rajk999 of that effort. Nothing gets through about the New Testament overcoming being rewarded and being defeated inviting discipline and even punishment in the future.
He has one ONE answer for incentive to live the Christian life - You will lose your eternal redemption if you do not keep what he perceives as the laws of Jesus Christ.
You may be thinking, This is great — I can live like the devil and still get what I want from God." If you think that, I'd say you aren't born again, because a Christian wants to please God.
I am not sure I agree. You may be born again and desire to still live like you are not. You may assume that because you are eternally redeemed and have the gift of eternal life, there will be no consequences.
Now, I believe that there are Christians who do not have the Scriptures to inform them about this foolishness of assuming this danger. But intuitively I am sure they realize "Probably God is not that foolish to accept any behavior I do after I am saved."
I was like this for some time. I still wanted to live in the flesh. I did not have the verses. But I had my conscience telling me that probably there would be some consequence, though it may not be the loss of eternal life.
One day a word from he Holy Spirit leaped off the page towards me when I was being a glutton. As I was indulging a the verse shined out which said -
"Woe to you who are satiated now, for you shall hunger." (Luke 6:25)
Latter after I came to the local church life the word opened up to me and became crystal clear. I no longer had just an intuitive sense. I had the clear teaching of the New Testament, which I now understood. There will be the judgement seat of Christ and the rewards and punishments to those who have eternal life, as regards to the 1,000 year millennial kingdom.
I wrote extensively about this here in the past. I don't know if anyone received anything. Maybe one of two did.
This word is for Christians who have a desire to serve God but who still sin. When that happens, you go on and catch up and stand there with confidence in your Savior. Your faith in Jesus pleases God. None of us get saved and head straight on the path to God. We bounce around, but we're still heading in the general direction.
It certainly helps to know that we were saved for God's purpose. He needs us to fulfill His eternal purpose to build a living temple of God in man. It certainly helps to realize that God has an eternal purpose for which He saved us.
www.godseconomy.org
08 Aug 14
Originally posted by KingOnPointClearly you do not understand the expression 'love your neighbour'. It cannot possibly mean that one must tolerate the false doctrines spouted by the likes of you and sonship?
Rajk,
If you think that you love your neighbors, then why do you criticize in the unloving way that you do it?
Do you want people to type criticism to you. Is that why you criticize others? Where is the love that you are supposed to give? I find failure in you to love your neighbor as yourself. However, if you do not love yourself the way you sho ...[text shortened]... ever be good enough to go to heaven, and neither will I. Chri9st is the Savior, not good works.
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Originally posted by Rajk999Is this the false doctrine you speak of ?
Clearly you do not understand the expression 'love your neighbour'. It cannot possibly mean that one must tolerate the false doctrines spouted by the likes of you and sonship?
"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not of yourselves; it is the gift of God; Not of works that no one [including Rajk999] should boast ..." (Eph. 2:8-9)
Is that my false doctrine ? If so then I have to point out again that the new covenant opposing Judaizers were referred to by the Apostle Paul in this way -
"Beware of dogs, beware of evil doers, beware of the concision. For we are the circumcision, the ones who serve by the Spirit of God and boast in Christ Jesus and have no confidence in the flesh." (Phil. 3:2,3)
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08 Aug 14
Originally posted by sonship
[quote] Luke 22 shows us an example of someone who had faith and pleased God. In verses 31 and 32 Jesus is talking to Peter before the crucifixion. "And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren." ...[text shortened]... elps to realize that God has an eternal purpose for which He saved us.
www.godseconomy.org
You may be thinking, This is great — I can live like the devil and still get what I want from God." If you think that, I'd say you aren't born again, because a Christian wants to please God.
I am not sure I agree. You may be born again and desire to still live like you are not. You may assume that because you are eternally redeemed and have the gift of eternal life, there will be no consequences.
Now, I believe that there are Christians who do not have the Scriptures to inform them about this foolishness of assuming this danger. But intuitively I am sure they realize "Probably God is not that foolish to accept any behavior I do after I am saved."
I was like this for some time. I still wanted to live in the flesh. I did not have the verses. But I had my conscience telling me that probably there would be some consequence, though it may not be the loss of eternal life.
One day a word from he Holy Spirit leaped off the page towards me when I was being a glutton. As I was indulging a the verse shined out which said -
"Woe to you who are satiated now, for you shall hunger." (Luke 6:25)
Latter after I came to the local church life the word opened up to me and became crystal clear. I no longer had just an intuitive sense. I had the clear teaching of the New Testament, which I now understood. There will be the judgement seat of Christ and the rewards and punishments to those who have eternal life, as regards to the 1,000 year millennial kingdom.[/quote]
This is intended to reflect a person whose nature has not been changed. Someone who thinks "great, I can sin freely now" is probably not changed on the inside. I am speaking of the sin nature vs the new nature.
When a Christian is changed on the inside(new nature) he/she intuitively knows sin is wrong in the spirit.
You must know that in the new birth, the mind is still untouched. We continue to have carnal thinking until we endeavor to "renew" our minds as Romans 8 speaks about.
But in the spirit part of us, we are perfect, thus the reason for these verses to make any sense...
[b]1 John 5:18-20
We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him.
19 We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one.
20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.
NKJV
We cannot sin "in the spirit", but our minds are like a computer, programmed all our natural lives to live carnally. We rely on our own abilities, rather than to trust the Lord, we have a natural bent towards sin, lust, greed, etc. We are self centered rather than to look upon the need of others first.
Rom 6:1-4
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
NKJV
Rom 6:15-19
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? 17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.
NKJV
When we sin, God still loves us, as I am certain you know, the spirit is "grieved", but it does not affect our eternal salvation. What it does do is enslave us to the Adversary. Sin enslaves, binds us, the we cry out 1John 1:9...we confess, we say "Lord, you are right, I am wrong" and we are freed from that bondage.
I avoid sin like the plague! I do not wish to be ensnared by Satan, to have him wreck havoc over my family, my finances, my health, etc.
I tell myself "God still loves you stupid" but it is truly stupid, for a Christian to sin.
I will stop here due to length of this post...
Originally posted by robbie carrobieThis is exactly his modus operandi. He writes as if nobody else has written anything. There is no response to my points and to yours. He goes on blah, blah, blah, blah, ignoring all the passages we quote and explanations we make.
sorry i refuse to reason with brain dead zombies who insist that people read their posts but ignore the entire content of others on some trumped up pretext. The quotations mean exactly the same thing. Rajk is correct, you really are a moron.
Another idiotic thing they do is to start testifying of their own personal lives as if that trumps the words of Christ or the Apostles. Checkbaiter does the same thing "... Oh .. I did so and so and I was like this, but I became that .. God saved me blah blah ... .. " What the hell that has to do with the topic at hand. Im tired with this stupidity.
Anyway, thanks for your support in this thread. This is my last post here. I find it very interesting that KellyJay was once a supporter of this OSAS doctrine and now he has clearly moved across into the truth and siding with the bible teachings .. glad to see that 🙂
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Originally posted by checkbaiter
1 John 5:18-20
We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him.
19 We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one.
20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.
NKJV
This is very helpful.
We have to look away to Jesus, and look away more to Jesus, abiding in Him.
Isn't it something that John said the SEED implanted in the Christians CANNOT sin? I mean it is the indwelling righteous living SEED which, if we learn to be fully under His influence, will cause us to be growing in victory over all sinning.
"Everyone who has been begotten of God does not practice sin, becaue His SEED abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been begotten of God." (1 John 3:9)
Victory and overcoming are all a matter of the divine SEED, the Person that has been implanted into the Christians. He is the one we must learn to abide in.
The seed, the seed of life, all our hope is in the this indwelling seed. It is not wonder that we should stress that it is Jesus Christ who lives in us. The New Testament stresses it.
Notice also that John said that whatever is born of God overcomes the world. This is our regenerated human spirit where the SEED of God has been dispensed. Our human spirit, joined to the Lord, overcomes the world and is that "whatever" or rather the "everything" .
"For everything that has been begotten of God overcomes the world ..." (1 John 5:4a)
Our human spirit is the "everything" and the matter in us having been begotten of God if we receive Jesus. And Jesus is exactly that divine SEED of life who does not sin.
We need to be trained and to learn to abide in Him.
We cannot sin "in the spirit", ...
I believe I agree with this out of experience. It is however a growing and deepening matter which lasts a life time.
In other words, we need to grow in the depths of how deeply we abide in Christ, in our regenerated spirit. This is why a normal church life as a "farm" for Christ, is so very important. The local church is the FARM and the cultivated land specifically designed by God for the growth of Christ within human beings.
Right here Paul speaks to the church in Corinth -
"For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's cultivated land [farm], God's building." (1 Cor. 3:9)
The practical church must be a place where the crop of Jesus Christ can be cultivated and grow in the believers. This growth of divine life is the building up of the church - "you are God's cultivated land, God's building."
The seed planted within must be watered to grow. This growth of divine life is also the building of God's living temple. This will bring the Lord Jesus back to the earth.
but our minds are like a computer, programmed all our natural lives to live carnally.
So true. We are just used to living out of the old man.
A new way of living has to grow in us. That is abiding in Christ. That is allowing the overcoming non-sinning seed implanted in us to grow.
We rely on our own abilities, rather than to trust the Lord,
Exactly. Paul said that he and his co-workers had no confidence in the flesh.
"For we are the circumcision, the ones who serve by the Spirit of God and baost in Christ Jesus and have no confidence in the flesh." ( Phil 3:3)
We have to have all our confidence in the divine seed.
That seed is the Person of Jesus implanted into our human spirit.
Marvelous.
we have a natural bent towards sin, lust, greed, etc. We are self centered rather than to look upon the need of others first.
True. But Jesus the Emancipator can free us. Praise the victorious Lord Jesus. This is the gospel.
Rom 6:1-4
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
NKJV
The passage does show that the attitudes Paul faced then are the same as what many face today.
Our hope is in the Spirit - the Spirit of Jesus - the Spirit of Christ. We are glad that "the last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45)
Rom 6:15-19
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? 17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.
NKJV
Amen. great post.
08 Aug 14
Originally posted by Rajk999yeah its hard to understand why because if one reads the gospel accounts, Paul was on hand at the temple and in the market place and he would use scriptures to reason with people, same as the Christ, his method was to listen to people and help them come to the conclusion themselves. He appears to me to be a preacher but not much of a teacher, for in order to teach one needs to be a good listener.
This is exactly his modus operandi. He writes as if nobody else has written anything. There is no response to my points and to yours. He goes on blah, blah, blah, blah, ignoring all the passages we quote and explanations we make.
Another idiotic thing they do is to start testifying of their own personal lives as if that trumps the words of Christ or the ...[text shortened]... s clearly moved across into the truth and siding with the bible teachings .. glad to see that 🙂
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Originally posted by sonshipI am told that the word "gospel" was a rarely used word in the time even before the birth of Jesus. It was seldom used because of it's meaning.[b]1 John 5:18-20
We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him.
19 We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one.
20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him w ...[text shortened]... esent your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.
NKJV
Amen. great post.
It was defined as "Almost to good to be true news".
What a powerful meaning! The Gospel of Jesus Christ is indeed almost to good to be true news, but praise God it is!
I understand how people are so overwhelmed by the mercy and grace of the Lord, they find it difficult to believe.
It takes a supernatural move of God to open up the understanding of the immense love He has for His people.
Eph 2:1-10
And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
NKJV
Eph 3:14-21
For this reason I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 from whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, 16 that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with might through His Spirit in the inner man, 17 that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; that you, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the width and length and depth and height — 19 to know the love of Christ which passes knowledge; that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.
20 Now to Him who is able to do exceedingly abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that works in us, 21 to Him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus to all generations, forever and ever. Amen.
NKJV
It took me some time to appreciate the phrase " according to the power that works in us"... Amen!
08 Aug 14
Originally posted by checkbaiterIt is the rendering of the Greek evangelion, i.e., "good message." Why it should be imbued with superstition is hard to say.
I am told that the word "gospel" was a rarely used word in the time even before the birth of Jesus. It was seldom used because of it's meaning.
It was defined as "Almost to good to be true news".
What a powerful meaning! The Gospel of Jesus Christ is indeed almost to good to be true news, but praise God it is!
I understand how people are so overwhelme ...[text shortened]... t took me some time to appreciate the phrase " according to the power that works in us"... Amen!
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08 Aug 14
Originally posted by checkbaiter
I am told that the word "gospel" was a rarely used word in the time even before the birth of Jesus. It was seldom used because of it's meaning.
It was defined as "Almost to good to be true news".
What a powerful meaning! The Gospel of Jesus Christ is indeed almost to good to be true news, but praise God it is!
I understand how people are so overwhelme ...[text shortened]... t took me some time to appreciate the phrase " according to the power that works in us"... Amen!
It took me some time to appreciate the phrase " according to the power that works in us"... Amen!
Amen.
The power that operates in us is able to do far above all that we ask or think. The power unleashed in oneness and in the unity of the body of Christ.
Ask the brother Lee from the Philippians to comment.