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09 Aug 14
Originally posted by Rajk999Heb 10:1-14
Show me that verse.
For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect. 2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? For the worshipers, once purified, would have had no more consciousness of sins. 3 But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.
5 Therefore, when He came into the world, He said:
"Sacrifice and offering You did not desire,
But a body You have prepared for Me.
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin
You had no pleasure.
7 Then I said, 'Behold, I have come —
In the volume of the book it is written of Me —
To do Your will, O God.'"
8 Previously saying, "Sacrifice and offering, burnt offerings, and offerings for sin You did not desire, nor had pleasure in them"(which are offered according to the law), 9 then He said, "Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God." He takes away the first(the first covenant) that He may establish the second. 10 By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. 14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
NKJV
09 Aug 14
The Faith/Grace vs works is really just two sides of the same coin .....we can run our mouths all day along about how we love God but if we do nothing to help or love our fellow man then as James said our religion is worthless.....there has to be a practical outworking of our inner belief or faith and it does come down to the fact that if we say we Love Jesus we will obey Him this in and of itself does not save us but it gives proof to an inner reality.
Manny
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09 Aug 14
Originally posted by sonshipTypos Corrected:
What then is the error of the Arminianist? It is that the only answer God has for these lapses is the loss [edited] of eternal life.
Throughout the New Testament there are warnings to believers, both in the gospels and in the epistles. Most degraded Christianity does not take these warnings very seriously.
There are those like Rajk999, however, that go to the other extreme. All these warnings are warnings, to him, of the loss [edited] of eternal life. So that view is rightly called an elevator salvation - assured this moment because of good behavior but denied the next moment because of a failure.
I labored months ago on probably more than one thread on the Dispensational Reward and Punishment of the Millennial kingdom (though that was not the formal name).
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Originally posted by robbie carrobie
there is no love if you are using the sacrifice of the Christ as an inducement to sin as jaywill
That I was tired on some occasion and did not read someone's post well, I would confess to be guilty of.
You are lying above in this statement. I understand that you were offended and retaliated with name calling - "brain dead zombie, moron".
I never advocate the sacrifice of Christ as an "inducement to sin". And you could not produce any post of mine proving this false accusation.
I think you're simply lying out of anger. This reinforces my suspicion that the Jehovah's Witness religion is really one based on hate.
"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out that they might be manifested that they were not of us." (1 John 2:19)
But being tired on some evening and not reading well what someone wrote? Yes, to that I have to admit that I am at fault.
09 Aug 14
Originally posted by checkbaiterVery nice. You picked the right passage. However continue reading the same Hebrews 10 and you will see this :
Heb 10:1-14
For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect. 2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? For the worshipers, once purified, would have had no more consciousness of sins. ...[text shortened]... l. 14[b] For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
NKJV[/b]
Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
I will leave you with that. Read the whole thing. Take a piece of the story at your own peril.
09 Aug 14
Originally posted by menace71As James said FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD.
The Faith/Grace vs works is really just two sides of the same coin .....we can run our mouths all day along about how we love God but if we do nothing to help or love our fellow man then as James said our religion is worthless.....there has to be a practical outworking of our inner belief or faith and it does come down to the fact that if we say we Love Jes ...[text shortened]... bey Him this in and of itself does not save us but it gives proof to an inner reality.
Manny
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Originally posted by Rajk999
As James said FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD.
As James said FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD.
Where did James say "Faith without works is the loss of eternal redemption" ?
Where did James say "Faith without works is renunciation of the gift of eternal life" ?
09 Aug 14
Originally posted by sonshipI am happy to leave false teachers like yourself in your ignorance. However if that passage in your Bible is missing here it is:As James said FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD.
Where did James say "Faith without works is the loss of eternal redemption" ?
Where did James say "Faith without works is renunciation of the gift of eternal life" ?
But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. (James 2:20-26 KJV)
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Originally posted by Rajk999
I am happy to leave false teachers like yourself in your ignorance. However if that passage in your Bible is missing here it is:
But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was ...[text shortened]... y without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. (James 2:20-26 KJV)[/b]
I am happy to leave false teachers like yourself in your ignorance. However if that passage in your Bible is missing here it is:
Translation: " I really have a hard time refuting this guy."
But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. (James 2:20-26 KJV)
Thank you. I ALWAYS enjoy the pure word of God. Seriously.
And comment as to how this relates to "Once Under the Law Always Under the Law" Arminian elevator salvation, I will comment on a bit latter.
Originally posted by sonship" I really have a hard time refuting this guy."I am happy to leave false teachers like yourself in your ignorance. However if that passage in your Bible is missing here it is:
Translation: " I really have a hard time refuting this guy."
[quote]
But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered ...[text shortened]... Under the Law Always Under the Law" Arminian elevator salvation, I will comment on a bit latter.
You know what that means? I dont think you realise what you said and how badly it incriminates you.
You prepare long analyses of explanations of passages which mostly deviates far from the Word of God .. ie you veer into the region of false teachings.
I quote you a passage from the Bible and leave you to read it. I often say absolutely nothing else .. I quote Christ and the Apostles.
So if you believe I am trying to refute you, you are mistaken. Christ and the Apostles are refuting you, and you like the moron you are, constantly try to argue with them.
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But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. (James 2:20-26 KJV)
The book of Genesis says " he [Abraham] believed Jehovah, and He accounted it to him as righteousness." (Genesis 15:6)
Abraham was surely perfected and made mature, developed, and caused to become the example of faith he was to the world.
Moses did not write that Abraham was ready even to sacrifice his only son Isaac, and God counted THAT to him as righteousness. Before that act God in chapter 22 had already justified Abraham, accounting his faith as righteousness before Him in chapter 15.
The passage in James is about being perfected as a testimony before men. Before God Abraham's belief in God was attributed to him as justifying righteousness. All saints need perfecting.
Take human life and compare it to spiritual life.
To be BORN is not to instantly arrive at maturity and perfection as a full grown adult. To be BORN is to BEGIN the process of maturity, or of "perfecting".
In the spiritual life man is also justified and reborn as a beginning and not a conclusion. And James is speaking about perfecting and not initial redemption.
Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
This is about perfection which is a process.
Perfection in salvation is a matter of dispositional transformation.
Positionally, Abraham's faith was accounted to him as the justifying righteousness long before the offering of Isaac.
But wait a minute. There's a pushback? Afterall James did say this -
And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Hmmm. Abraham was treated as a "Friend of God" in chapter 18 when God visited him, had lunch, and told him about what was going to happen in Sodom. This is chapter 18 before chapter 22.
Wait a minute though! It could be some OTHER act of Abraham that caused God to regard him as His Friend. With this I have no objection. He was being perfected to be closer and closer to God.
But the process would have never begun to occur, to develop had not God counted Abraham's faith as the justifying righteousness positionally. Dispositional salvation is based on Positional salvation and not the other way around.
Now let's put all this in New Testament terms in one nicely supplied passage - Romans 5:10 -
"For if we, being enemies, were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more we will be saved in His life, having been reconciled." (Rom. 5:10)
Step One - As former ENEMY the believer has been RECONCILED to God through the death of His Son. This relates to the believer's past. His faith has been accounted to him for righteousness. He has been positionally reconciled to God.
Step Two - Having BEEN RECONCILED there awaits him something "much more" - being saved in the realm of Christ's divine indwelling life. This is the salvation dispositionally through transformation.
The perfecting that James is speaking of is that of dispositional transformation. That is faith spreading out into the believer's daily living in a practical way.
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. (James 2:20-26 KJV)
Thank you brother James. We know Paul wrote 13 of the 27 NT books and God had James contribute ONE book. All are the word of God. But the more vital portion surely was contributed by Paul's epistles, including Romans the most basic outline of orthodox Christian doctrine.
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09 Aug 14
Originally posted by sonshipLOL, you are exactly correct brother...I laughed because most people are not aware of Abraham's past...He married his step sister, which was against the law, which came later...He lied in part twice when he told the two Kings she was his sister and omitted she was his wife, to save his own skin.
[quote] But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteou ...[text shortened]... Paul's epistles, including [b]Romans the most basic outline of orthodox Christian doctrine.[/b]
All this and God still counted his faith as righteousness!
09 Aug 14
Originally posted by checkbaiterLOL ?? You are laughing at Christ and the Apostles. Are you placing all the millions of Christians in the category of Abraham, David, Moses etc? The Bible says there comes a point after which there is NO MORE SACRIFICE FOR SINS. So laugh away.
LOL, you are exactly correct brother...I laughed because most people are not aware of Abraham's past...He married his step sister, which was against the law, which came later...He lied in part twice when he told the two Kings she was his sister and omitted she was his wife, to save his own skin.
All this and God still counted his faith as righteousness!
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Originally posted by checkbaiter
LOL, you are exactly correct brother...I laughed because most people are not aware of Abraham's past...He married his step sister, which was against the law, which came later...He lied in part twice when he told the two Kings she was his sister and omitted she was his wife, to save his own skin. All this and God still counted his faith as righteousness!
There is no question that the "father of faith" was in a life long process of being perfected. He was not at all unlike most of us.
So I concur that his history reveals how very like most of us he was, dragging his feet, concerned for his own skin much of the time, and willing to throw away all the promises to save his neck. Abraham was a lot like us.
Not only so. But we might as whether Abraham really ever reached full perfection in maturity.
I don't think he did. All the promises of God, his son, his seed, the land, were tied up with him and Sarah. After Sarah died Abraham marries another woman. Keturah.
Wikapedia's comment:
According to the Hebrew Bible, Keturah or Ketura (Hebrew: קְטוּרָה, Modern Ktura Tiberian Qəṭûrā ; ... "Incense" ... ) was the woman whom Abraham, the patriarch of the Ishmaelites and Israelites, married after the death of his wife, Sarah. Keturah bore Abraham six sons, Zimran, Jokshan, Medan, Midian, Ishbak, and Shuah.[1] The spelling of the sons' names varies as can be seen in 1st century CE Historian Flavius Josephus, who mentions Keturah and her sons in Antiquities of the Jews 1.238.
Keturah is referred to at different times as either Abraham's wife in Genesis 25:1[2] or Abraham's concubine in 1 Chronicles 1:32.[3] While Abraham left everything to Isaac, he made grants to his sons by his concubine during his lifetime, and sent them east away from Isaac.[4] He died at the age of 175.[5] Keturah's six sons represent Arabian tribes south and east of Canaan.[citation needed]
"And Abraham took another wife, whose name was Keturah." (Genesis 25:1)
Okay, perhaps the old man was lonely and could use some help with all his vast possessions and household. But ...
"And she bore him Zimran and Jokshan and Medan and Midian and Isbak and Shuah." (v. 2)
Perhaps the writer gives us a glimpse into Abraham's last days. You might think with the promises for a son fulfilled by God, he would have been at peace that he had passed through the essential human life for God's purpose that he was to experience. But the second marriage may suggest that he was not fully matured spiritually and at peace with all the troubles he has passed through witnessing God's faithfulness.
I could be wrong. But I was told this by an aged disciple.
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09 Aug 14
Originally posted by Rajk999
LOL ?? You are laughing at Christ and the Apostles. Are you placing all the millions of Christians in the category of Abraham, David, Moses etc? The Bible says there comes a point after which there is NO MORE SACRIFICE FOR SINS. So laugh away.
The Bible says there comes a point after which there is NO MORE SACRIFICE FOR SINS. So laugh away.
Do you have the time of day that will occur this afternoon ?
Since Jesus offered Himself ONCE there has been no more sacrifice for sins. The same book of Hebrews tells us.
" ... Who does not have daily need, as the high priests do, to offer up sacrifices first for his own sins and then for those of the people; for this He did once for all when He offered up Himself." (Hebrews 7:27)
Sounds like Jesus only offered up ONE sacrifice for sins once and for all.