09 May 19
@ghost-of-a-duke saidFirst, God is not all-loving in the sense we think. Love in that sense [if it is in the bible], means that God is guiding the affairs of men so that man will eventually read a point of perfection in the Kingdom of God. Many people live in a fools paradise about what God is about. God does not send his angels to guard everyone who thinks they are religious.
What about the innocent who are too young to pray? Why isn't God protecting them? Why doesn't He make sure nothing can touch them, at least until they are old enough to make their own choices?
In one hand, I have a child dying of a terminal illness. In the other, I have a deity who is all-powerful, all-loving, and all knowing. Why isn't one taking care of the other?
Next, a human being is a human being. Baby, child, adult, is all the same to God as far as I can tell. God sees two types - good and evil. eg In the law of Moses disobedient children are to be stoned to death. God is more concerned about the spiritual war going on between good and evil. Good must triumph and evil must fail.
My view as a Christian is way out there far away from just about all Christians I have encountered and it is centered around the belief that Jesus Christ came and preached to people all over the known world. This he did during the so-called missing 18 yr period. He would have preached exactly the same thing as he did in his sermons to the Jews eg the Sermon on the Mount. It is all about brotherly love, good works and righteous living. All who live this way will see the Kingdom of God.
Maybe it is the case that children who die will enter the Kingdom of God. Maybe the Hindus idea of reincarnation has some relevance here in that a suffering child is just a man from a previous life now living a few years paying for his sins in the past life before his goes to his place of rest. Maybe that is what purgatory is about. Maybe that was what Paul was referring to when he said a sinful Christian saint will still be saved through fire. There are many unknowns. Maybe all the major religions have a piece of the puzzle and it is only when people see all these pieces together and how Gods plan fits will people attain a full understanding of these things.
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09 May 19
@rajk999 saidSome interesting points there Rajk, especially your openness to other religions (rarely encountered among Christians). I do query however your statement that 'baby, child, adult, are all the same to God.' For example, I am minded of Matthew 18:2-6:
First, God is not all-loving in the sense we think. Love in that sense [if it is in the bible], means that God is guiding the affairs of men so that man will eventually read a point of perfection in the Kingdom of God. Many people live in a fools paradise about what God is about. God does not send his angels to guard everyone who thinks they are religious.
Next, a human b ...[text shortened]... hese pieces together and how Gods plan fits will people attain a full understanding of these things.
'He called a little child to him, and placed the child among them. And he said: “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Therefore, whoever takes the lowly position of this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. And whoever welcomes one such child in my name welcomes me. If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea..'
@ghost-of-a-duke saidThe good news is that openness among Christians is on the rise. The fundamentalist Christian will die off in a few decades .. hopefully.
Some interesting points there Rajk, especially your openness to other religions (rarely encountered among Christians). I do query however your statement that 'baby, child, adult, are all the same to God.' For example, I am minded of Matthew 18:2-6:
'He called a little child to him, and placed the child among them. And he said: “Truly I tell you, unless you change ...[text shortened]... them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea..'
In your Matthew quote Jesus anwsers a question from the disciples, about who will be the greatest in the Kingdom. This was apparently an issue among his disciples and Jesus uses children as an example. He refers to common characteristics of children [rather than the age of the child], which are sometimes absent in adults -
- humility [lack of humility was demonstrated by the disciples by even asking such a question]
- believing and accepting the teachings of Christ
It is these types of people who will be the greatest in the Kingdom of God, and people who accept such humble and believing people it is tantamount to accepting Christ.
I dont think the issue is children but rather a particular quality that children possess often absent in adults.
@ghost-of-a-duke saidAnd Finally a Religious Joke 😃😃😊😊.... worth fwding
Some interesting points there Rajk, especially your openness to other religions (rarely encountered among Christians).
I went to a Inter-Religion Integration Seminar.
The Bishop came, laid his hands on my hand and said, “By the will of Jesus Christ, you will walk today!”
I smiled and told him I was not paralysed.
The Rabbi came, laid his hands on my hand and said, “By the will of God Almighty, you will walk today!
I was less amused when I told him there was nothing wrong with me.
The Mullah came, took my hands and said, “Insha Allah, you will walk today!”
I snapped at him, “There’s nothing wrong with me”
The Hindu sadhu came and said "Beta, you will walk on your legs today."
I said "Babaji - nothing wrong with my legs"
The Buddhist Monk came, held my hands and said, “By the will of The Great Buddha, you will walk today!”
I rudely told him there was nothing wrong with me.
After the Seminar, I stepped outside and found my car had been stolen.
I believe in all religions now......
@ghost-of-a-duke saidYes, you do.
I have enough reasons to disbelieve in the God portrayed by Christianity. (The point of the thread).
But you also have enough reasons to believe, as well.
This is the point of free will.
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@suzianne saidI don't think free will helps me in this regard. Free will doesn't provide any 'reasons' for belief. Free will, for example, allows me to jump off a cliff in the hope of flying. I'm never going to.
Yes, you do.
But you also have enough reasons to believe, as well.
This is the point of free will.
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10 May 19
@ghost-of-a-duke saidI hope you aren’t implying that everyone who believes in God has been forced to do so and haven’t evaluated evidence and decided to believe by their own free will.
I don't think free will helps me in this regard. Free will doesn't provide any 'reasons' for belief. Free will, for example, allows me to jump off a cliff in the hope of flying. I'm never going to.
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10 May 19
@dj2becker saidNo.
I hope you aren’t implying that everyone who believes in God has been forced to do so and haven’t evaluated evidence and decided to believe by their own free will.
Odd you would think that.
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10 May 19
@ghost-of-a-duke saidYou have the free will to ignore any evidence placed before you.
I don't think free will helps me in this regard. Free will doesn't provide any 'reasons' for belief. Free will, for example, allows me to jump off a cliff in the hope of flying. I'm never going to.
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10 May 19
@dj2becker saidI have the free will to ignore 'you.'
You have the free will to ignore any evidence placed before you.
10 May 19
@ghost-of-a-duke saidActually I believe it is the only thing that does give us reasons for beliefs.
I don't think free will helps me in this regard. Free will doesn't provide any 'reasons' for belief. Free will, for example, allows me to jump off a cliff in the hope of flying. I'm never going to.
11 May 19
@kellyjay said... because if we did not have free will that would mean ...
Actually I believe it is the only thing that does give us reasons for beliefs.
?