Reasons for disbelief in the Christian God

@philokalia said
But it isn't really death at all.

In early Christianity, the tombstones and epitaphs always referred to it as sleeping because it was integral to the theology to clarify in the beginning that we believe in the eternity of the soul, and that the body itself but sleeps until the final judgment.

Death is not death. Death is conquered.

And we will all f ...[text shortened]... ng it in the way that is opportune to your argument and ignoring the internal logic of Christianity.

Do Christians have a different understanding of suffering? Is the harsh reality of suffering irrelevant due to the heavenly reward that awaits?

And if the answer is no, suffering is not irrelevant, then why doesn't a perfectly loving deity prevent it?

@kellyjay said
Difficult to discuss a root cause of anyone's suffering that is made up. Having had gone through that, and seen much of it around us for a year, I can tell you there are plenty of reasons for some of the innocents to suffer. So you are suggesting you have someone in mind that for no reason are suffering? I have to ask you why do you think suffering means anything good or bad, isn't it just life in your opinion?

The person I have in mind Kelly is the child suffering with a terminal illness. Why are you trying to play down this raw example? What are the 'plenty of reasons' a child would have such a terminal illness?! And how could such suffering and pain be anything other than 'bad?'

@ghost-of-a-duke said
Do Christians have a different understanding of suffering? Is the harsh reality of suffering irrelevant due to the heavenly reward that awaits?

And if the answer is no, suffering is not irrelevant, then why doesn't a perfectly loving deity prevent it?

Well, there's the famous doctrine of Romans 5 that talks about suffering as a means of producing good character. Suffering does seem relevant to our lives and to who we are, and it is a tool for growth.

Yet, suffering is also relative to each person, and there are those who do not require much suffering (relatively) to gain good character. It is impossible to make sweeping generalizations about this.

@ghost-of-a-duke said
The person I have in mind Kelly is the child suffering with a terminal illness. Why are you trying to play down this raw example? What are the 'plenty of reasons' a child would have such a terminal illness?! And how could such suffering and pain be anything other than 'bad?'

Bad according to what, what you find distasteful, another may feel one way is good and another bad. On top of that while others disagree or don’t care! Hot and cold requires a means to measure, so does up and down, left and right.

Without any fix points of reference how are you making that judgment call. I believe it is wrong and bad because I believe that we should be living life free of all that, by design but we broke ourselves so we are falling short.

@kellyjay said
Without any fix points of reference how are you making that judgment call.

Your moral compass gives you points of reference when you are you making a judgment call. Same for me. Same for Ghost of a Duke.

@philokalia said
Well, there's the famous doctrine of Romans 5 that talks about suffering as a means of producing good character. Suffering does seem relevant to our lives and to who we are, and it is a tool for growth.

Yet, suffering is also relative to each person, and there are those who do not require much suffering (relatively) to gain good character. It is impossible to make sweeping generalizations about this.

Sigh.

Again, we are discussing the suffering of a child with a terminal illness. Please explain what such suffering has to do with the production of a good character?!

It appears, in this thread, that most Christians prefer to digress immediately into 'general suffering' rather than addressing the more difficult terminal suffering of an innocent, where excuses such as 'free will' or 'learning lessons' or 'growing in character' are completely irrelevant.

@kellyjay said
Bad according to what, what you find distasteful, another may feel one way is good and another bad. On top of that while others disagree or don’t care! Hot and cold requires a means to measure, so does up and down, left and right.

Without any fix points of reference how are you making that judgment call. I believe it is wrong and bad because I believe that we should be living life free of all that, by design but we broke ourselves so we are falling short.

Take your own Bible as a fixed point of reference. (I'm happy here to do the same). Am I wrong to extrapolate that the death of an innocent child is a bad thing?

@ghost-of-a-duke said
Take your own Bible as a fixed point of reference. (I'm happy here to do the same). Am I wrong to extrapolate that the death of an innocent child is a bad thing?

From scripture we can see suffering and death are bad things for everyone, and here with cause. In addition they are also temporary as are most things in this life, even many things we can call good or bad in the now. What isn’t eternal will perish in time.

@kellyjay said
From scripture we can see suffering and death are bad things for everyone, and here with cause. In addition they are also temporary as are most things in this life, even many things we can call good or bad in the now. What isn’t eternal will perish in time.

Temporary or not, what reason would there be for a perfectly loving God to allow an innocent to suffer? The ends justifying the means doesn't strike me as a particularly perfect approach.

@ghost-of-a-duke said
Temporary or not, what reason would there be for a perfectly loving God to allow an innocent to suffer? The ends justifying the means doesn't strike me as a particularly perfect approach.

If you are going to take scriptures you need to take them all. God created everything and for a short time everything was called very good. Everyone actually was loving God and each other, that was how it was meant to be.

We broke faith with God the world was cursed, in the next generation murder occurred, and it got progressively worse! The fallout was very broad, so we see things we can call bad.

Your world view is it only a matter of taste for some and not others?

@kellyjay said
If you are going to take scriptures you need to take them all. God created everything and for a short time everything was called very good. Everyone actually was loving God and each other, that was how it was meant to be.

We broke faith with God the world was cursed, in the next generation murder occurred, and it got progressively worse! The fallout was very broad, so we see things we can call bad.

Your world view is it only a matter of taste for some and not others?

A better attempt to answer the question kelly, but a pity you ruined it with the last sentence which completely misrepresents anything I believe. To bring 'matter of taste' into such a conversation as this is bordering on offensive.

@ghost-of-a-duke said
A better attempt to answer the question kelly, but a pity you ruined it with the last sentence which completely misrepresents anything I believe. To bring 'matter of taste' into such a conversation as this is bordering on offensive.

I asked you a question that was offensive? I would think simply disclosing the truth of your beliefs about the subject would have cleared any misconceptions up! I will be more careful with you in the future!

@ghost-of-a-duke said
Sigh.

Again, we are discussing the suffering of a child with a terminal illness. Please explain what such suffering has to do with the production of a good character?!

It appears, in this thread, that most Christians prefer to digress immediately into 'general suffering' rather than addressing the more difficult terminal suffering of an innocent, where excuses such as 'free will' or 'learning lessons' or 'growing in character' are completely irrelevant.

We have to answer this from the Christian perspective and then we are dealing with a lot of concepts. I dislike very long form answers on abstract topics like this because they hinge very much on the belief in other basic premises & the internal logic of Christianity, and if someone wants to willfully forget aspects of it, the argument has to start over again. But we have no choice but to make the argument in these circumstances.

First: We have eternal life (and so does the child).

Second: Innocents will inherit the Kingdom of God as they are yet unsullied by sin as babies or very young children who haven't reached the mature will that can be held accountable.

... What does the suffering of a terminally ill child mean for them? Obviously, they cannot grow in character as they do not yet have the capacity of character, so it is actually not relevant to character building for them.

It is suffering that is relevant to others, though, and facilitates their own spiritual growth, and it is also relevant in terms of the human condition and human society in the sense that we do live in a fallen world.

But just as how Christ's suffering on the cross did not serve to benefit His Own character, but for the benefit of others & for part of the great divine working, some of our suffering is not for our own character development. Yet, because all things are interconnected and penetrate one another (a thought that is very important in Buddhist philosophy), our suffering is actually never meaningless, even if its meaning is beyond our own immediate scope.

We also cannot exclude the possibility that this suffering is intensely relevant to them in the Kingdom of Heaven where they do obtain spiritual growth and a concept of themselves and God. As Fr. Josiah Trenham talks about it, Heaven actually is a place of spiritual growth where even those of us here who have led a very long life will continue to grow.

@kellyjay said
If you are going to take scriptures you need to take them all. God created everything and for a short time everything was called very good.

And doing this is your prerogative. If you want ~ or feel you must ~ base your personal opinions about moral matters on these scriptures and that "you need to take them all", then that's what a moral compass synthesizes for you and then that moral compass is what guides your interactions with other people.