14 May 19
@ghost-of-a-duke saidHey this is Texas, sandals or cowboy boots and I don’t have the hat! 🙄
I knew it...
15 May 19
@ghost-of-a-duke said"Invested with attributes", as you stated, only comes from the bible. For those who believe in the Christian God, they have obviously chosen to believe in not only a Creator, but the Creator that the bible gives us, which includes His character.
@KellyJay
The wording in the title of this thread was carefully chosen. It does not read 'Reasons God does not exist.' (I am laying out reasons for 'disbelief' not necessarily clear cut 'evidence' of non-existence. Or, if you prefer, 'insurmountable barriers' to belief). The title also does not read, 'Reason for disbelief in God.' It is more specific than that. It ...[text shortened]... in God anyway. I don't like that answer, but at least he didn't try to dance around the real issue.
If a Christian were courageously honest, he would admit that the God portrayed in the bible has seemingly human qualities such as anger and jealousy, which causes Him to commit some pretty odd actions.
It's my opinion that doubt is a normal, healthy reaction in pondering whether the Creator of all things actually behaves in those ways, along with the points regarding suffering, that appear in this thread.
I have stated in the past that I believe in an Almighty Creator, whom I choose to call God, the Christian God, but many of the stories in the bible riddle my mind with doubt, especially from the Old Testament.
I see nothing wrong with a Christian being able to admit doubt.
The bible doesn't do us any favors with regards to some of God's character traits, actions and inactions.
(Just my humble opinion)
15 May 19
@ghost-of-a-duke saidSome of these quotations are vital to the response so I am going to highlight them here:
As an atheist, one of (if not the primary) reason I am not able to contemplate the existence of a deity who is simultaneously omnipotent and omnibenevolent is the existence of suffering, especially of the young. - The reason most theists do not want to address this point head on is precisely this theological oxymoron.
Indeed, so devastating is this glaring absurdi ...[text shortened]... of becker asking us if torturing babies for fun is ever acceptable if there are no moral absolutes.
As an atheist, one of (if not the primary) reason I am not able to contemplate the existence of a deity who is simultaneously omnipotent and omnibenevolent is the existence of suffering, especially of the young. - The reason most theists do not want to address this point head on is precisely this theological oxymoron.
You are missing the absolutely constant, continual point I am bringing up: within the internal logic of Christianity, the suffering and death of a child (or any person) is not the end, and innocent children are specifically guaranteed eternal happiness and presence with God in His Kingdom.
How could it be an oxymoron that God is loving and benevolent, if an eternity of bliss is promised to them?
You are not confronting the argument as it stands in Christian terms but instead looking at it from the perspective of an atheist who believes that the only life that we have is on earth, and thus seem rightfully indignant that this would be the only existence that they would have.
Indeed, so devastating is this glaring absurdity (that an all powerful, all loving and all knowing god would allow children to suffer) theists will often go to great lengths to avoid volunteering their meagre explanations for this profound divine negligence/abandonment.
... How is cosmic justice ensuring the eternal happiness and bliss of children negligence and abandonemnt? It is the most personal and loving thing that can possibly occur.
Is this a contest to see who can be the most arrogant, dismissive, and obtuse about what the other claims?
If so, you have won a Gold Medal.
Why do I play theses games? This is the only game in town Jack.
You don't even see what the game is.
You do not allow for the internal logic of your opponents to play any role in your assessment of what they actually believe, so you aren't actually attacking what they believe.
And don't play the hypocritical 'emotional blackmail' card. We have endured years of becker asking us if torturing babies for fun is ever acceptable if there are no moral absolutes.
I had thought that you would be above bringing up other posters and all the years we have spent together against our will (apparently).
15 May 19
@chaney3 saidWe do share attributes of God but He doesn't have our built in flaws. As you point out he can get jealous and angry. You need to remember we were made in His image so why wouldn't we share some of the same qualities.
"Invested with attributes", as you stated, only comes from the bible. For those who believe in the Christian God, they have obviously chosen to believe in not only a Creator, but the Creator that the bible gives us, which includes His character.
If a Christian were courageously honest, he would admit that the God portrayed in the bible has seemingly human qualities such a ...[text shortened]... s with regards to some of God's character traits, actions and inactions.
(Just my humble opinion)
I'm very surprised people dump on God in the OT while ignoring the same qualities in the NT? Some people have claimed (not saying those here do) that Jesus is love, and they just pay attention to Jesus, because Jesus talked about casting people into Hell far more then the rest of the Bible together.
I think God showed as much long suffering in the OT than He does in the NT and the NT was brought into play by everything done in the OT. It wasn't like God was just fiddling around in the OT then said I think I'll starting acting as a God of Love and change my ways for the NT.
15 May 19
@eladar saidI'm not sure what he was looking for, but its a dangerous question I know from experience, and I was reminded of this listening to a discussion today on the way home from work. This question, "why does God allow a child to suffer" using the same words, yet depending on who is asking turns into a different question.
@KellyJay
He is saying you must make your argument based on his point of view.
If its asked by someone whose child just died.
If its asked by someone who never had anyone near them suffer that way.
If its asked by someone whose child is in the hospital.
If its asked by someone close them has a child in the hospital.
If its asked by someone who lost a child a long time ago.
Same question, the same words, not the same because who is asking and why!
When we lost ours my wife and I joined a group for parents that lost children.
The first thing that was said is we should not compare ourselves to anyone in the group at all, we know what it was like to loss our child we don't know what others are going through we are all different and our losses are just as different.
So I could have been answering a question due to what we went through, he could have been asking for a different reason, and it could have been just as personal. I would hate to find fault in this discussion towards anyone.
I've heard some ugly things said by people trying to comfort, I've heard some very harmful things by people who thought they were speaking the truth to people in the middle of that loss.
15 May 19
Right, Kelly -- keeping a respectful distance and letting others be alone with their grief and thoughts is right... Let them know that you think of them, but I think it is very much in bad form to cross lines.
There is a certain amount of propriety that must be held in these cases.
The more I think about it... the more I realize that man can be something like an island because, ultimately, his whole mental life and reality, and all of the unique circumstances that he has faced, are between him and God alone.
It is ironic but maybe it is in consolation after a major event that we must keep the most distance, and it is in our daily living that we should seek to be close.
@philokalia saidIt never ends, all of that happen to us while we lived in Illinois, we moved to Arizona after our next child was born, we had another in Arizona, moved to California had another long after I thought we were done. 🙂 Then at the church we were going to friends of our had twins, both in serious trouble hanging on to life. It was then I realized we were reminders of what could happen, made me feel like a leper, then one died, then the other. Horrible, that event it brought it all back. Even when you are over it, you are not over it.
Right, Kelly -- keeping a respectful distance and letting others be alone with their grief and thoughts is right... Let them know that you think of them, but I think it is very much in bad form to cross lines.
There is a certain amount of propriety that must be held in these cases.
The more I think about it... the more I realize that man can be something like an is ...[text shortened]... that we must keep the most distance, and it is in our daily living that we should seek to be close.
@kellyjay saidYou are not sure what Ghost of a Duke was looking for? But haven't you been reading his posts?
I'm not sure what he was looking for, but its a dangerous question I know from experience, and I was reminded of this listening to a discussion today on the way home from work.
@chaney3 saidJust keep in mind that it is not God who has our attributes, but we who have God's attributes.
"Invested with attributes", as you stated, only comes from the bible. For those who believe in the Christian God, they have obviously chosen to believe in not only a Creator, but the Creator that the bible gives us, which includes His character.
If a Christian were courageously honest, he would admit that the God portrayed in the bible has seemingly human qualities such a ...[text shortened]... s with regards to some of God's character traits, actions and inactions.
(Just my humble opinion)
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15 May 19
@suzianne saidOf course, If God is the fabrication of human beings, then we have endowed him with our attributes.
Just keep in mind that it is not God who has our attributes, but we who have God's attributes.
I think that is more likely.
@ghost-of-a-duke saidI thought I was talking to a believer.
Of course, If God is the fabrication of human beings, then we have endowed him with our attributes.
I think that is more likely.
If not, then of course I retract my statement.
I'm not in the mood for beating the truth into people today.
People don't want to believe, who am I to stand in their way?
15 May 19
@kellyjay saidI disagree, it is exactly the same question and it is asked for exactly the same reason I.e. to understand why god would allow suffering.
This question, "why does God allow a child to suffer" using the same words, yet depending on who is asking turns into a different question.
If its asked by someone whose child just died.
If its asked by someone who never had anyone near them suffer that way.
If its asked by someone whose child is in the hospital.
If its asked by someone close them has a child in th ...[text shortened]... hild a long time ago.
Same question, the same words, not the same because who is asking and why!
Can you clarify why the words are asking a different question requiring a different answer just because the person asking has a different experience?
15 May 19
@divegeester saidA question like that is prompted by what the questioner is going through, and if you are dealing with a death that just happen, or child that is going through it at the moment and your looking for answers. Having someone even correctly attempt to answer you through proper text interpretation, that is not going to deal with the heart of one who is in pain and asking out of it. They are asking about what they are really going through it at the moment, do they really care what chapter and verse you know?
I disagree, it is exactly the same question and it is asked for exactly the same reason I.e. to understand why god would allow suffering.
Can you clarify why the words are asking a different question requiring a different answer just because the person asking has a different experience?
Someone once said it is sometimes wrong to give the right answer to the wrong question, it is better to answer the person not the question. People hearts typically are very raw at the moment, and they need to ministered too, while someone who is asking for a academic reasons it is all chapter and verse of whatever text you are using.
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15 May 19
@suzianne saidIf you were to convert me to theism, you would be beating the truth 'out' of me.
I thought I was talking to a believer.
If not, then of course I retract my statement.
I'm not in the mood for beating the truth into people today.
🙄