Spirituality
16 Dec 11
24 Dec 11
Originally posted by FMF
As a matter of interest, how many historical sources do you have that corroborate the allegations about the Midianites?
As a matter of interest, how many historical sources do you have that corroborate the allegations about the Midianites?
For my immediate purposes of faith and knowing the ways of my God, I only need one, the Bible. God knows all the facts.
24 Dec 11
Originally posted by sonhouseDid you read my post? It had already been stated that it was God's
I think it safe to say exactly one source, which is all they need to start a war.
vengeance that was to be carried out in the verse you quoted. Moses
was doing God's will. Who are you to tell the Creator how he is to
carry out His vengeance?
24 Dec 11
Originally posted by VoidSpiritYou may find more on historical knowledge of Midianites. I said for my purposes all I need is the word of God. When I need more information, I know where I can go to see if there is any.
so there are none save for the propaganda in the bible. duly noted.
Copied with Permission From Christian ThinkTank.
================================================
Who were the Midianites?
Essentially, the Midianites were descendants of Abraham through Keturah, and by the time of Numbers 31, were a ‘tribal league’ of different clans and families. Some of the kin-group lived around the Gulf of Aqaba, in perhaps settlements, while other groups remained as nomads and raiders:
“The extreme northwestern corner of the Arabian Peninsula, immediately east of the Gulf of ‘Aqaba, was associated by the classical and medieval Arab geographers with the place name Madian or Madiama. It is generally agreed that these persevere the name of Midian, the son of Abraham and Keturah and the ancestor of the Midianites of the Hebrew Bible.” [HI😲EANE, s.v. “Midian”]
“The Midianites are portrayed in these [Biblical] traditions as nomadic sheep and camel herders, caravaneers, and raiders, ranging over a wide territory to the south and east of Canaan. There is no reason to suppose that this portrayal is not essentially correct, at least in part. However, recent archaeological survey in northwestern Arabia—the heartland of Midian—has indicated that this is not the whole story. There also existed, during the final centuries of the second millennium BCE, sedentary communities that should, in all, probability, be included among the Midianites…At the site of Qurayyah [Qurayyah is on the east of the Gulf of Aqaba, on a major trade route between Yemen and the Levant.].” [HI😲EANE, s.v. “Midian”]
“As indicated above the biblical evidence suggests that the Midianites ranged over a large area, including northwest Arabia, southern Transjordan, the Arabah, portions of the Negeb, and possibly northern Sinai. Although northwest Arabia eventually became associated with the land of Midian, probably the range of the Midianites at one time was much larger…Further, some research has raised the possibility that Midian refers not to a land but to an amorphous league of tribes. This league dominated the people and areas of the southern Transjordan, Negeb, and portions of Arabia from the Late Bronze Age until approvimately the 11th century B.C., when other people gradually supplanted the league.” [ISBE]
“The presence of Midianite shepherd bands in the Sinai should not be a problem since the discovery of the Mari documents. Large-scale sheepherding requires considerable travel between summer and winter pasturages, often involving tens or hundreds of kilometers. There is no plausible objection to the presence of shepherd bands in the Sinai who were identified or identified themselves as adherents of the political/cultural system of the Midianites. The same is true of populations in the Jordan valley just N of the Dead Sea. The Midianites can no longer be regarded naively as primitive nomadic barbarians; they were a complex and cosmopolitan civilization with a highly diverse economy and, in all probability, an extensive control system for a few decades that included parts of Palestine and Transjordan. [ABD, “Midian”, Mendenhall]
Around the time of the exodus, the Midianites closer to Egypt (where we have the evidence of settlements and industry), were hospitable to Moses and have a positive image in the biblical tradition (as Kenites):
“The hospitality of Jethro to Moses is commendable, but beyond that the Midianites were a people hostile to Israel.” [ZPEB]
“The Kenites were a Midianite tribe (Nu. 10:29; Jdg. 1:16; 4:11). The name means ‘smith’, and the presence of copper SE of the Gulf of Aqabah, the Kenite-Midianite region, confirms this interpretation. The Kenites first appear as inhabitants of patriarchal Canaan (Gn. 15:19). Subsequently Moses becomes son-in-law of Reuel (Ex. 2:18), and invites Hobab his son to accompany the Israelites, coveting his nomadic skill (Nu. 10:29). Kenites accompanied Judah into their inheritance (Jdg. 1:16; 1 Sa. 27:10). They were spared by Saul in his Amalekite war (1 Sa. 15:6), and David cultivated their friendship (1 Sa. 30:29). The Rechabites were of Kenite stock (1 Ch. 2:55), and were prominent in post-exilic times (Ne. 3:14). [NBD, s.v. “Kenites”]
At the time of Numbers, the group of Midianites ‘up north’ were a dominant military force, albeit still with ‘ethics’ of raiders/slavetraders:
“For the Egyptians, the inhabitants of the arid regions of Sinai, the Hijaz, and Transjordan seem to have been subsumed under the term shasu and depicted as pastoralists and raiders, much as the Midianites are depicted in the Hebrew Bible.” [HI😲EANE, s.v. “Midian”]
So when the Midianite merchants came by, his brothers pulled Joseph up out of the cistern and sold him for twenty shekels of silver to the Ishmaelites, who took him to Egypt. ..36 Meanwhile, the Midianites sold Joseph in Egypt to Potiphar, one of Pharaoh’s officials, the captain of the guard. (Gen 37:28, 36)
“Being desert people, their existence was nomadic. When some of them picked up Joseph, it was typical of their way of life—trading, traveling, and troubling others.” [ZPEB]
“The Midianites, along with the Amalekites and the ‘people of the East,’ periodically harassed certain tribes of Israel during the period of the Judges. Since Palestine at this time was particularly vulnerable due to the collapse of the Canaanite city-states and the decline of Egyptian influence, groups from the fringe areas could penetrate deeply into otherwise secure areas. Moving from the Transjordan region into the Jezreel Valley and beyond, the Midianites preyed upon Israel, apparently during the harvest times (Jgs. 6:1-6). The Israelites had difficulty dealing with the Midianites, who used the camel to make long raids and retreat quickly.” [ISBE, s.v. “Midian”]
“There is evidence that Midian exercised a protectorate over Moab, Edom, and Sinai from ca. 1250-1000 BC (Eissfeldt). Often Midian opposed Israel or became a subversive influence. [But note that both Midian and Moab at this time were vassals under the power of Sihon of the Amorites—cf. Josh 13.21]
The Midianites were allied with Moab, under the control of Sihon (who had already been defeated by Israel):
“The expression ‘towns in their dwellings’ leads to the conclusion that the towns were not the property of the Midianites themselves, who were a nomad people, but that they originally belonged in all probability to the Moabites, and had been taken possession of by the Amorites under Sihon. This is confirmed by Josh., xiii.21, according to which these five Midianitish vassals of Sihon dwelt in the land, i.e. in the kingdom of Sihon.” (p.226)
“Moab was closely associated with the Midianites, so much so that the elders of both peoples acted as one group when they went to the town of Pethor to bring back Baloam (Num 22:4–7). The Bible depicts the Midianites as largely a nomadic people. The point is this: for the Moabites to have been on such friendly terms with the Midianites, the former also were probably still largely nomadic, since from time immemorial there has been strife between the inhabitants of the desert and the residents of the towns in agricultural areas. Therefore the time of Moses must have been before the thirteenth century B.C. when the Moabites began to build permanent towns. [“New Light on the Wilderness Journey and the Conquest”—Grace Journal—V2—Spring 1961]
As a tribal league, the various tribal leaders could have radically different attitudes toward life, ethics, and Israel. Moses’ father-in-law (Jethro) and other Kenites were allied with Israel, but those farther north were generally hostile and predatory (cf. Heber the Kenite who was allied with Syria in Judges 5, the Midianite/Amalekite raids, and the Midianites in our passage). The more nomadic ones seemed to have been operating as raiders and slavetraders, wheras the less nomadic ones were more pastoralist in culture (cf. Jethro). The ‘northern’ Midianites are often linked with the cruel Amalekites and Canaanites in the biblical narratives (e.g., Judges 6,7).
25 Dec 11
1 edit
Originally posted by jaywillInteresting, but I'm sure he does not give a rat's ass about this. All he
You may find more on historical knowledge of Midianites. I said for my purposes all I need is the word of God. When I need more information, I know where I can go to see if there is any.
Copied with Permission From Christian ThinkTank.
================================================
Who were the Midianites?
Essentially, the Midianites were ...[text shortened]... n linked with the cruel Amalekites and Canaanites in the biblical narratives (e.g., Judges 6,7).
wants to do is find fault and harass you with nonsense.
P.S. I believe he is the one that said our beliefs are irrelevant. So
anything that is put forward to support them is also irrelevant.
25 Dec 11
Originally posted by jaywill
You may find more on historical knowledge of Midianites. I said for my purposes all I need is the word of God. When I need more information, I know where I can go to see if there is any.
Copied with Permission From Christian ThinkTank.
================================================
Who were the Midianites?
Essentially, the Midianites were ...[text shortened]... n linked with the cruel Amalekites and Canaanites in the biblical narratives (e.g., Judges 6,7).
The ‘northern’ Midianites are often linked with the cruel Amalekites and Canaanites in the biblical narratives (e.g., Judges 6,7).
indeed. more propaganda. the only "cruel" people i could find in the bible were the hebrews.
25 Dec 11
Originally posted by VoidSpiritThat's proof that the Hebrew Bible is true.The ‘northern’ Midianites are often linked with the cruel Amalekites and Canaanites in the biblical narratives (e.g., Judges 6,7).
indeed. more propaganda. the only "cruel" people i could find in the bible were the hebrews.
25 Dec 11
Originally posted by RJHindsWhy don't you back up and look at a bigger picture here. So you are saying an infinite god, infinite powers, omniscient, has charge of at least one entire universe with all its billions of stars and probably millions of intelligent races on some of those billions of stars, some behind us spritually speaking, some way ahead, and out of all those millions of minions on all those planets, this god gets totally ticked off at one tribe herding sheep in the desert, enough to tell his favorite pets to kill all of them.
Did you read my post? It had already been stated that it was God's
vengeance that was to be carried out in the verse you quoted. Moses
was doing God's will. Who are you to tell the Creator how he is to
carry out His vengeance?
Sure, it could happen. When pigs dig holes through to china.
25 Dec 11
Originally posted by jaywillBut you've repeated terrible allegations against the Midianites and you've only quoted evidence that has as its source the writings of the Midianites' enemy.
For my immediate purposes of faith and knowing the ways of my God, I only need one, the Bible. God knows all the facts.