Salvation

Originally posted by The Chess Express
[b]Actually, if you read Genesis carefully, God did not only allow evil; evil was an aspect of God’s creation, at least en potentia (not as a “thing,” but as a potential valuation of things and events); otherwise there could not have been a metaphorical “tree of the knowledge of good and evil” (etz ha da’at tov v’ra in the Hebrew). ...[text shortened]...

If God is the source of all good, then to not choose God is to choose

suffering.

TCE

Whether God “allowed” evil, or made it a part of his creation is probably just splitting hairs.

[/b]Actually, I don't think it is just splitting hairs. On the other hand, I didn't think when I posted that as a reply to your post—I was using "you" as a general you, and not you in particular. I just really clicked you post as the last one in the series... (mea culpa)

The reason I say I don't think it's just splitting hairs is that I'm coming from the pretty fundamental Jewish understanding that God is the source of all of it. Otherwise, you (the general “you” again!) allow duality into the system—some other creative force.

Basically, though, I don’t think you and I are far apart on this one. The question that you’re addressing, of course, is the one of why evil—or, as I prefer to be picky, ra—in the scheme of things, that is, why would God deem it necessary. Judaism seems to have a plethora of viewpoints on this, and I am currently doing some re-reading to see what I can pull together. The only real point I wanted to make is that the “fall” story—a story, as you pointed out—is not necessarily only about morality. And the point that Adam and Eve, as the story is told, really had no concept that their disobedience was “wrong” prior to gaining that knowledge from eating of the tree.

Originally posted by aspviper666
recognition of yourself as a partaker in THE TREE OF LIFE
is i think the most important aspect of getting "saved"
and regaining ignorance of THE TREE OF KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL to regain purity

I don’t think regaining ignorance is a way to purity. If this were true

then it would defeat the whole point of us being here. Jesus knows

what good and evil is, and he always chooses good. Personally, I do

believe that this state is attainable.

Matt 10: 24-25 “The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant

above his lord. It is enough for the disciple that he be as his

master, , and the servant as his lord...”

Originally posted by aspviper666
recognition of yourself as a partaker in THE TREE OF LIFE
is i think the most important aspect of getting "saved"
and regaining ignorance of THE TREE OF KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL to regain purity

Now that is an interesting viewpoint—and not one that I think is dismissible, especially since I think I have an idea where you’re coming from (a bit of kabbalistic understanding in there, no?) Once again, you are sending me back to my bookshelf! (I’m suddenly thinking of the principle of tikkun, “repair,” here, in the kabbalistic and Hasidic senses; and t’shuvah, “return,” sometimes translated as repentance—but in the sense of turning.)

Question: Is it possible to “regain ignorance?” Or is it a matter of “returning” to a “clear mind” (either in the Zen sense—or, are we talking about the “ascent” to keter, or at least to hochma, i.e., past the discursive, dividing aspects of binah? Could you expand on what you’re thinking? (I probably won’t respond right away, because I’m going to have to ponder it awhile&hellip😉

EDIT: Please don't respond with "badda-boom, badda-bing!" 😉

Originally posted by Nemesio
Originally posted by The Chess Express
[b]This perfect creation then would have no knowledge of evil. Without experiencing what something is, it is impossible to know it.

LOL. This is so false. Does God have a knowledge of evil?
Is God perfect? Then, God very easily COULD have created an
entity which would have knowledge of evil but, lik ...[text shortened]... The rest of your post rests on your false premise, so I won't bother
to address it.

Nemesio[/b]

It was never for man to know evil. True the opportunity to sin was there. Man could have waited and spoke to GOD. Told GOD about the serpent. GOD trusted man. Trusted man enough that HE went elsewhere to rest from all HIS work.
You cannot understand GOD because you are only looking at it, from the point of view as an enemy of GOD. The point of view of a sinful unrepentful man. Which appears to really is unable to look at Creation fairly or with truth. You have the same unrepentant arguement that satan used in the Garden of Eden. When he called GOD a liar. You are doing the same thing.
GOD created all things good and evil. Yes, there was evil before Mankind sinned. Yes evil was in the Garden. But, Mankind was not to know of it. Mankind was not to be a contender in the War Of Good and Evil. Mankind is responisible for it's sin. Mankind has noone to blame but mankind.
You seem to be angry at GOD, for whatever reason. Whatever the reason what part did you play? What part of the reason are you to be held responsible for.

Originally posted by Nemesio
Let me ask you this, Blindfaith:

If I tempted God to do evil, would He do it (cf. the Gospels with the temptation
of Jesus)? Of course, He wouldn't. He's perfect!

If Adam and Eve had been perfect, similarly, they would not have sinned.

I don't see what is so hard here.

Nemesio

You are tempting GOD, rather you realize it or not. Mankind was given a choice. To obey GOD or not obey GOD. Yes mankind could have remained perfect, but mankind chose not to. Mankind is responible for the choice that he made. Trying to complicate it does not make it simple.

Originally posted by The Chess Express
[b]Originally posted by The Chess Express
[b]This perfect creation then would have no knowledge of evil. Without experiencing what something is, it is impossible to know it.

Originally posted by Nemesio
LOL. This is so false. Does God have a knowledge of evil?
Is God perfect? Then, God very easily COULD have created an
enti ...[text shortened]... emise, so I won't bother
to address it.

How do you know that this is a false premise?[/b]

GOD knew evil before HE created us. HE just never destroyed evil. What HE has done is show all creation what life is like being separrated from The Love of GOD. Which is something that most of Mankind has not understood as of yet. Just as now those of you that hate GOD, can never experience or understand the separation from HIS love. You can only complain about things that you do not have the abillty to understand or accept.

Originally posted by The Chess Express
[b]So, before Creation, God wasn't omniscient (he didn't know what evil was)?

[/b]You never answered my question. How can there be light if there is no darkness?


So, God wasn't able to make us perfect from the get-go, knowing what evil was but actively choosing against it?

God is an incompetent Creator, then! Can't even make ...[text shortened]... ?

[b]What a bizarre point of view!

[/b]God seems bizarre to those who don't know him.[/b]

Maybe the proper Question is...........What caused the Darkness? or Where did evil come from? What is a perfect creation?

Originally posted by Halitose
[b]Then, God very easily COULD have created an
entity which would have knowledge of evil but, like God, would not
pick it.

Limited free will? An obvious contradiction. Freedom of will requires freedom of choice.

God, would not pick it.

That is one of the many reasons IMO why God is God and we humans are mere mortals, we have the knowlegde of evil, and we choose evil.[/b]

Before GOD created man, there was a creation that knew what evil was, and did not pick it.

Originally posted by vistesd
Actually, if you read Genesis carefully, God did not only allow evil; evil was an aspect of God’s creation, at least en potentia (not as a “thing,” but as a potential valuation of things and events); otherwise there could not have been a metaphorical “tree of the knowledge of good and evil” (etz ha da’at tov v’ra in the Hebrew). Also, the se ...[text shortened]... -late 15th century.

** John Ayto, Dictionary of Word Origins, 1990, Arcade Publishing.

Evil was allowed Ater man Sinned.

Originally posted by blindfaith101
You are tempting GOD, rather you realize it or not. Mankind was given a choice. To obey GOD or not obey GOD. Yes mankind could have remained perfect, but mankind chose not to. Mankind is responible for the choice that he made. Trying to complicate it does not make it simple.

Does this interpretation really make sense to you? God would punish

everybody based on the actions of two. Why? Because God is fair? I

know how the story goes, but I also know that you have the capacity

for reason and common sense. If God created two that were perfect,

and they sinned, why would God not just punish the two who sinned?

Why would God go on to create billions more who are far worse than

Adam and Eve? How do you explain this? If God hates sin, why would

he make everybody so that they sin constantly all because of what two

did?

The tree that Adam and Eve ate from was the tree of the

knowledge of good and evil was it not? Doesn’t it make more sense

that perhaps God originally made it so that Adam and Eve could not

sin? Perhaps God forced his will on them. Then God realized that this

doesn’t work. If there is no evil there is no good, and if Adam and Eve

did not have free will, they couldn’t choose to give their hearts to God.

This is why God gave them free will and the knowledge of good and

evil. This way people can choose God, and God can be contrasted with

evil.

Does this interpretation not make more sense?

Originally posted by aspviper666
recognition of yourself as a partaker in THE TREE OF LIFE
is i think the most important aspect of getting "saved"
and regaining ignorance of THE TREE OF KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL to regain purity

Mankind seems to think that it is all about self. Mankind was looking at self when he sinned. Mankind is looking at self in his battle with GOD. Mankind is all about self. That is the sin.
When CHRIST was here, HE did not look to please himself. HE looked to please GOD. Until begin to do that, you will never understand. Why GOD said not to touch the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.

Originally posted by vistesd
[b]Whether God “allowed” evil, or made it a part of his creation is probably just splitting hairs.

Actually, I don't think it is just splitting hairs. On the other hand, I didn't think when I posted that as a reply to your post—I was using "you" as a general you, and not you in particular. I just really clicked you post as the last on ept that their disobedience was “wrong” prior to gaining that knowledge from eating of the tree.

[/b]I can agree with you that God is the source of all things. You claim

that this means that God didn’t allow evil he created it. I guess I’m

just not seeing the distinction. If it helps to clear up some of the

fussing we’ll go with your view that he created it.

Anyway, I’m not sure about the “plethora of viewpoints” that

Judaism has on this, but the concept (in my opinion I should stress) is

pretty simple. There has to be evil to contrast good. White chalk

cannot be seen on a white blackboard. God can only be happy with us

if we are allowed to choose between good and evil, and we choose

good, or God. This way he has our hearts by our own free will, not

because he forced us to love him.

BTW, no offense but what relevance does all this have?

Originally posted by vistesd
(I’m suddenly thinking of the principle of tikkun, “repair,” here, in the kabbalistic and Hasidic senses; and t’shuvah, “return,” sometimes translated as repentance—but in the sense of turning.)

are we talking about the “ascent” to keter, or at least to hochma, i.e., past the discursive, dividing aspects of binah?

Originally posted by The Chess Express
Does this interpretation really make sense to you? God would punish

everybody based on the actions of two. Why? Because God is fair? I

know how the story goes, but I also know that you have the capacity

for reason and common sense. If God created two that were perfect,

and they sinned, why would God not just punish the two who sinne ...[text shortened]... God, and God can be contrasted with

evil.

Does this interpretation not make more sense?

Adam and Eve were the queen and king of mankind, so to speak. Allof mankind came from them. They tasted the fruit of the knowledge right and wrong. Which meant for exsistance, if eve was pregnant, would not her child not taste it. Or since Adam ate it would not all his future children not have ate it.
Did not GOD warn them, that they would die. Has not man discovered multitude of ways to die, to kill, maime, etc. etc. etc. Is not the state of Mankind not the result of what Adam and Eve did. Is it not true that the more that you warn children about mistakes. Do they not find a way to make their own.
Yes it would have been nice if GOD would have wiped mankind out on the spot. Then we would not be having these conversation. GOD has enemies, such as the example in the Garden of Eden. GOD is showing all past and future Creation. What happens when you disobey HIS Laws. What happens when you sin against him. We are part of that example, Only part.
What is mankind that it thinks so highly of its self?
What is mankind that thinks it is all that?
Mankind is only the Dust of the Ground, and that breath of life, that GOD gave. Or some that believe, Mankind comes from a one cell molecule.
Why is mankind so uppity? Mankind only real importance is only is to be apart of GOD'S plan, in the War of Good and Evil.

Originally posted by blindfaith101
Adam and Eve were the queen and king of mankind, so to speak. Allof mankind came from them. They tasted the fruit of the knowledge right and wrong. Which meant for exsistance, if eve was pregnant, would not her child not taste it. Or since Adam ate it would not all his future children not have ate it.
Did not GOD warn them, that they would die. Has no ...[text shortened]... Mankind only real importance is only is to be apart of GOD'S plan, in the War of Good and Evil.

Which meant for existence, if eve was pregnant, would not her child not taste it. Or since Adam ate it would not all his future children not have ate it.

The Bible makes no mention of Eve being pregnant.

Did not GOD warn them, that they would die. Has not man discovered multitude of ways to die, to kill, maimed, etc. etc. etc. Is not the state of Mankind not the result of what Adam and Eve did. Is it not true that the more that you warn children about mistakes. Do they not find a way to make their own.

According to the Bible God warned them, not the billions that

came after them. This is the part that makes no sense for the

reasons that I mentioned in my previous post.

Yes it would have been nice if GOD would have wiped mankind out on the spot. Then we would not be having these conversation.

How would that have been nice?

GOD has enemies, such as the example in the Garden of Eden. GOD is showing all past and future Creation. What happens when you disobey HIS Laws. What happens when you sin against him. We are part of that example, Only part.
What is mankind that it thinks so highly of its self?
What is mankind that thinks it is all that?
Mankind is only the Dust of the Ground, and that breath of life, that GOD gave. Or some that believe, Mankind comes from a one cell molecule.
Why is mankind so uppity? Mankind only real importance is only is to be apart of GOD'S plan, in the War of Good and Evil.

This all just supports the point I made in my previous post. Adam and

Eve were far better then those who came after them. All they did was

eat an apple right? So why would God make everybody far worse than

them if he hates sin? How would this even be fair? What does this

have to do with love or mercy? How does this make any sense at all?

Originally posted by The Chess Express
[b]Which meant for existence, if eve was pregnant, would not her child not taste it. Or since Adam ate it would not all his future children not have ate it.

The Bible makes no mention of Eve being pregnant.

Did not GOD warn them, that they would die. Has not man discovered multitude of ways to die, to kill, maimed, etc. etc. etc. Is n ...[text shortened]... be fair? What does this

have to do with love or mercy? How does this make any sense at all?

No Eve was not pregnant, I just used that as an example.
The point is that you do not love GOD, therefore you cannot accept or agree. You enjoy looking at it from man's point of view. You as well as others think that man is all that. When the truth of the matter is, Man was created from the dust of the earth. The dust on the bottom of your shoe.