Originally posted by vistesdI think if he passively allows it to happen, it can't be against his will that it happens. And I didn't add that omniscients is also one of God's attributes. If true, then nothing could be a surprise for God.
[b]…if
omnipotent means God wills all things that happen…
Question: Do you mean here that strictly that God “actively” wills, or are you also allowing for God to “passively” allow? What I’m getting at is, can omnipotence also mean that God allows what God could prevent if God so chose? Or is it your understanding that whatever happens is ...[text shortened]... y, I’m wondering how “big” that “if” is in your presentation; I don’t want to stumble over it&hellip😉[/b]
Many Christians take the position that God allows suffering, but He does not cause it. And this might be true - but I can't see that changes the fact that if God is omniscient, then what happens must be in accord to his will. And although that sounds passive - it makes little difference with respect to the fact that God could have "actively" prevented suffering if He wanted to.
So I guess I'm saying the "active" and "passive" are not predicates of God's will. God's will is what it is.
Originally posted by ColettiAnd although that sounds passive - it makes little difference with respect to the fact that God could have "actively" prevented suffering if He wanted to.
I think if he passively allows it to happen, it can't be against his will that it happens. And I didn't add that omniscients is also one of God's attributes. If true, then nothing could be a surprise for God.
Many Christians take the position that God allows suffering, but He does not cause it. And this might be true - but I can't see that ...[text shortened]... ng the "active" and "passive" are not predicates of God's will. God's will is what it is.
Okay, understood. I don’t see how God’s omnipotence—in a world in which children can suffer horrible pain from natural events, for example, and be predestined to hell to boot—can be squared the with John’s statement “God is agape.” Many (most?) theologians seem to take John’s statement as a straightforward statement of God’s fundamental essence, and, as such, one by which other statements about God’s attributes must be measured—and not the other way ‘round. John, of course, could’ve been caught up in his own poetic hyperbole, in which case his statement has no real meaning at all. (And it has little enough meaning if it is watered down.)
I also don’t see how such a God can expect to be loved—even by those who believe they are among the elect, unless that “love” is just a kind of self-centered expression of gratefulness. Further, supposing for the moment that one can love “on command,” that is surely not of the same quality as love freely given.
Given the choice between obeisance to an all-powerful but cruel God, and love—I choose love.
EDIT: I do not claim any nobility in that choice; I cannot choose otherwise.
Originally posted by NemesioGOD gave Adam and Eve a choice. HE knew what the results would be on whatever choice they made. He knew that the laws that he put in place would go in action. Man wanted to know the knowledge of good and evil. Now mankind lives by whatever Laws that come with knowing what Good and evil is. Man did not listen, and he was warned.The only one to blame is man. He let someone from the outside(satan) of his relationship with GOD, influence him. Yes GOD knows the result of wrong choices. But, HE has allowed man to make those wrong choices. What man needs to learn admit to himself that he is responsible for his actions.
Originally posted by blindfaith101
[b]Yes GOD knew what is going to happen. That is very true. Except you are missing a point or two. When GOD put Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden.
So, God is a pervert, then? He created Adam and Eve knowing
that they would fall from grace and bring all that evil into the world.
He put the Tree of ...[text shortened]... fruit!
So God is either incompetent, perverse or both, according to
your view.
Nemesio[/b]od
Man was not made for evil, he chose evil. It certainly does say: And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden,and the tree of knowledge of good and evil. GENESIS 2:9
Ans the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. GENESIS 2:16,17
And the woman said unto the serpent, we may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden. But the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. GENESIS 3:2,3
And the Lord God said, Behold, the man has become as one of us, to know good and evil: and lest he put forth his hand , and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever: GENESIS 3:22
The woman clearly say that they could erat of every tree, but the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. GOD clearly says they could eat of any tree except the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Which would mean that they had knowlwdge and understanding of what they could eat and what they could not.
Find where in the begining that where does it say that mankind was imperfect. Man became imperfect when he ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
Originally posted by blindfaith101A perfect human is incapable of yielding to temptation and sinning.
Find where in the begining that where does it say that mankind was imperfect. Man became imperfect when he ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
Adam and Eve yielded to temptation and sinned.
Therefore, God created imperfect beings.
Nemesio
Originally posted by ColettiStop saying 'my' definition, as if we all have different definitions.
Hi Red Herring!
What is your definition of omnipotent and omni-benevolent?
P.S. I did not give any 'definitions' - I gave a 'meanings'. When you understand the diference you will have an insight into logic.
The definition I use are the orthodox definitions. Omnipotent
means just what the Latin says: all powerful, or, capable of effecting
any logical thing. Omnibenevolent means 'all good' that is, all actions
effected by God are good.
Now: would you say it is good, evil, or neutral if I saw a child drowning
in a shallow pool and I didn't try to save it? It is within my 'potency'
to save it and if I fancy that I am benevolent, I would say that it would
be evil for me not to save this child.
Yet God 'passively' allows this to happen all the time. So, either He is
powerless to stop evil from happening (not omnipotent) or he kinda likes
watching people suffer (not omnibenevolent).
Nemesio
In order for one to believe in God it is necessary to believe that God is omnipotent, omnipresent, and the ultimate source of all things good (love, mercy, wisdom, etc). Humans are not. God doesn’t want suffering to happen, humans do.
The truth is we are responsible for the way this world is. Instead of blaming it all on God as if it was what he wanted, try to answer this one question.
How can God bring us from where we are now, to divine perfection?
If you were God, how would you do this?
Take away free will? That takes away our consciousness, our individuality. What good would we be if we lost that? God knows that there is not much value in mindless robots. He wants us to choose him over evil. He wants us to choose good over suffering. Why is it so hard to understand that if we choose evil, evil happens?
People learn through suffering. That’s the sad truth of it. We don’t have to. We can choose to learn the easy way, but many times we don’t, so stuff happens.
If somebody’s religious descriptions of what God is and what God is going to do doesn’t make any sense to you, then reject it.
Just because there are some who think that God will send people to hell for all eternity because of a few short years here on earth does not make it true.
Most of the time those who preach with authority about what God is going to do don’t know God. A loose interpretation of a scripture that is thousands of years old is not proof. Usually, the very same scripture says that there is no way for them to know what God will do.
Those who blame God don’t know God. The funny thing is they know people all to well. They know the things that people do to one another. Somehow, they choose to blame an idea of God that they have no understanding of, and turn a blind eye to what people do.
I think instead of getting too caught up in this world, we all need to just worry about ourselves. Sounds selfish right? Well, maybe, but what’s the alternative? Go crazy worrying about all the ways the world is not perfect?
If we improve ourselves, the world will get better on its own. We are a part of the world are we not?
This doesn’t mean we shouldn’t help those in need. It just means that changing the world starts inside each one of us.
Instead of blaming God, perhaps we should try to get to know him.
Originally posted by Rajk999
I have a simple question with hopefully a simple answer.
How does one obtain salvation .. eternal life .. life everlasting ?
This is the mystery that we should be working on. This doesn’t mean taking somebody else’s word for it, or letting trouble discourage us, it means making the effort and discovering the truth for ourselves.
Originally posted by The Chess Express
How can God bring us from where we are now, to divine perfection?
If you were God, how would you do this?
As God, I never would have made an imperfect creation, one that was
destined to sin and fall from grace.
God has free will, right? He could choose to do evil, but He does
not (let's take this as a given). I would have made humankind just like
that: capable of choosing evil, but perfect such that it never would.
People learn through suffering. That’s the sad truth of it. We don’t have to. We can choose to learn the easy way, but many times we don’t, so stuff happens.
Only because God set it up that way by making imperfect beings. A perfect
being could learn from other means. A perfect being would recognize that a
certain action would cause suffering and would strive to avoid it.
If we improve ourselves, the world will get better on its own. We are a part of the world are we not?
This doesn’t mean we shouldn’t help those in need. It just means that changing the world starts inside each one of us.
Can't argue with this!
Nemesio
Originally posted by NemesioAs God, I never would have made an imperfect creation, one that was destined to sin and fall from grace.
Originally posted by The Chess Express
[b]How can God bring us from where we are now, to divine perfection?
If you were God, how would you do this?
As God, I never would have made an imperfect creation, one that was
destined to sin and fall from grace.
God has free will, right? He could choose to do evil, but He does
not (let that changing the world starts inside each one of us. [/b]
Can't argue with this!
Nemesio[/b]
This perfect creation then would have no knowledge of evil. Without experiencing what something is, it is impossible to know it.
If the idea of God making us perfect from the start with no knowledge of evil makes sense to you, then explain to me how there can be light if there is no darkness.
God has free will, right? He could choose to do evil, but He does
not (let's take this as a given). I would have made humankind just like that: capable of choosing evil, but perfect such that it never would.
I believe that this is what we will all be in the end. We need to understand why evil is bad and why God is good though. This is a part of our perfecting process.
Originally posted by NemesioThey bcame imperfect when they disobeyed. Did Adam and Eve do anything that was considered imperfect before they ate the forbidden fruit. Or could it be yhat you donot understand perfection or imperfection.
A perfect human is incapable of yielding to temptation and sinning.
Adam and Eve yielded to temptation and sinned.
Therefore, God created imperfect beings.
Nemesio
Originally posted by The Chess ExpressAlso, it’s probably best not to take stories like Adam and Eve too seriously. Regardless of what actually happened, what matters is where we are now and where we have to go.
[b]As God, I never would have made an imperfect creation, one that was destined to sin and fall from grace.
This perfect creation then would have no knowledge of evil. Without experiencing what something is, it is impossible to know it.
If the idea of God making us perfect from the start with no knowledge of evil makes sense to you, then ...[text shortened]... to understand why evil is bad and God is good though. This is a part of our perfecting process.[/b]
Blaming it all on two people who are supposed to have lived thousands of years ago, who may have taken a bite out of an apple does no good.
Originally posted by The Chess Express
This perfect creation then would have no knowledge of evil. Without experiencing what something is, it is impossible to know it.
LOL. This is so false. Does God have a knowledge of evil?
Is God perfect? Then, God very easily COULD have created an
entity which would have knowledge of evil but, like God, would not
pick it.
The rest of your post rests on your false premise, so I won't bother
to address it.
Nemesio
Originally posted by blindfaith101I think it is YOU who doesn't understand perfect and imperfect.
They bcame imperfect when they disobeyed. Did Adam and Eve do anything that was considered imperfect before they ate the forbidden fruit. Or could it be yhat you donot understand perfection or imperfection.
A perfect being is incapable of sin.
Adam and Eve were capable of sin.
Therefore Adam and Eve were never perfect.
Nemesio
Originally posted by NemesioThen, God very easily COULD have created an
Originally posted by The Chess Express
[b]This perfect creation then would have no knowledge of evil. Without experiencing what something is, it is impossible to know it.
LOL. This is so false. Does God have a knowledge of evil?
Is God perfect? Then, God very easily COULD have created an
entity which would have knowledge of evil but, lik ...[text shortened]... The rest of your post rests on your false premise, so I won't bother
to address it.
Nemesio[/b]
entity which would have knowledge of evil but, like God, would not
pick it.
Limited free will? An obvious contradiction. Freedom of will requires freedom of choice.
God, would not pick it.
That is one of the many reasons IMO why God is God and we humans are mere mortals, we have the knowlegde of evil, and we choose evil.
Originally posted by vistesdYou know very little about GOD. Just enough to complain about HIM. GOD has a set of laws to govern by. Those laws have been set in place for all to live by. These were in place before there was even a creation of this earth. There was a reason that GOD created earth and mankind. There was a reason why GOD put mankind in the Garden of Eden. There was a reason that HE gave man a choice to obey or not to obey. You complaint is really why did man make the wrong choice. Why did GOD, put the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, there before man as an temptation? Why could man do all he wanted except touch that tree? That is you complaint.
* A God that wanted children to die horrible deaths in the holocaust is a monster-God.
* A God that predestined such torture and death is a monster-God.
* A God that could’ve prevented that torture and death, but did not want to is a monster-God.
* A God who designed the universe in such a way that an event like the holocaust is necessary for a grea ...[text shortened]... e so cold and dispassionate as to approach the psychotic. (Maybe Calvin had his own psychosis.)
Your reasoning is one sided. You look at it as a enemy of GOD. So you understanding is as an enemy of GOD. What you do not do is look at GOD honestly. If you were on creation's court of justice you would convict GOD without even hearing HIS side. Justice is fair, if you are to Judge GOD be fair about it. But then there would have to be fairness in the enemies of GOD.
The day is comming when you will see the Fairness of all the Laws of GOD. The day is comming when the enemies of GOD will without a doubt will see that fairness. But in the meantime continue to look at GOD, onesided. That is when the fairness of GOD stands even more clearer.
Originally posted by ColettiWhere is your proof that GOD powerless to prevent sufferring? Or are you powerless to look at the root cause of the pain and sufferring of mankind. It seems that all blame GOD, Adam tried that. Why do you not place the blame, or try to place where it is. Have you placed any blame on that serpent, that convinced mankind to do what we did? Does anyone ever place the blame on mankind? Mankind was told do not touch. What was mankind doing even listening to the serpent, in the first place. Are you even looking at the fact that mankind had a choice. Mankind knew that GOD created him to replentish and rule this planet earth. Or have any of you even thought about, why was there a need to "replentish" earth. Or are you so convinced that it is about what mankind wants?
Do you then believe God is powerless to prevent suffering?