Salvation

Originally posted by Nemesio
Let me get this straight:

God set a plan in motion which entailed that some of His beloved creation
would, beyond their power to affect the future, burn in hell? That is, God
knew from the moment of their birth -- no, the beginning of time! -- that
this person would burn in hell?

And you're against abortion?!?!

If I knew that at the end of his ...[text shortened]... death...isn't that sorta like suicide?)?

God, as you describe Him, is a monster.

Nemesio

Yes before Creation GOD knew the end and the begining of all things. GOD set in motion a life for mankind to live without eternal damnation.
Yes GOD knows before hand those who will chose to follow HIM, and those who would not. Noone is forced to follow or not follow GOD. GOD did not Created hell or everlasting damnation for mankind. Mankind chooses to go there.
As far as your son spending eternity in hell. It is up to you to teach him right from wrong. If you don't, GOD will see to it, that he has a chance to make up his own mind.
It would seem that it would be best, to honestly search for the truth. From the begining to the end.
Most parents want what is best for their child. Raising them up in the truth is a good start.

Originally posted by Nemesio
Let me get this straight:

God set a plan in motion which entailed that some of His beloved creation
would, beyond their power to affect the future, burn in hell? That is, God
knew from the moment of their birth -- no, the beginning of time! -- that
this person would burn in hell?

And you're against abortion?!?!

If I knew that at the end of his ...[text shortened]... death...isn't that sorta like suicide?)?

God, as you describe Him, is a monster.

Nemesio

If I knew that at the end of his life my son was going to spend eternity burning
in hell, I would have aborted him so that no sin would stain him and that he
might be accepted into the kingdom of heaven (or at least 'limbo' or whatever).
Don't you think most parents would perform evil to save their children

Maybe - but would you still abort your child if you know you would set into motion a chain of events that would condemn millions, or even billions to Hell?

Originally posted by blindfaith101
You answered your own preceeding statement.

Yeah .. Coletti used Titus to prove his predestination theory. Se the previous post by him

Originally posted by blindfaith101
If you have a mind that has not been transforred to accept The Worls of CHRIST. Then you cannot understand. You can only stand on the outside THE WORD OF GOD, and pretend you understand.

Secret Decoder Ring Theory.

Originally posted by lucifershammer

If I knew that at the end of his life my son was going to spend eternity burning
in hell, I would have aborted him so that no sin would stain him and that he
might be accepted into the kingdom of heaven (or at least 'limbo' or whatever).
Don't you think most parents would perform evil to save their children

Maybe - but would y ...[text shortened]... u would set into motion a chain of events that would condemn millions, or even billions to Hell?

Under the Calvinist “double predestination” theory, how would it be possible for your actions to condemn anyone? If someone lacks faith, they were predestined to lack faith. If someone is condemned, they were predestined to condemnation (likewise for salvation). The only way any of this can be deemed either gracious or just is on the Calvinist principle of “total depravity”—we are all deserving of hell; God has “graciously” predestined some to salvation. Your behavior may provide clues as to which you are, but has no determining effect. That is the theory to which Nemesio is responding.

Originally posted by vistesd
Under the Calvinist “double predestination” theory, how would it be possible for your actions to condemn anyone? If someone lacks faith, they were predestined to lack faith. If someone is condemned, they were predestined to condemnation (likewise for salvation). The only way any of this can be deemed either gracious or just is on the Calvinist principle o ...[text shortened]... hich you are, but has no determining effect. That is the theory to which Nemesio is responding.

Ah, ok. Why is it called "double predestination" (and not just "predestination" ) btw?

In any case, Nemesio's stand indicates he is arguing from a libertarian perspective (something Bbarr says is rubbish), so I'd still be interested in the answer.

EDIT: Russ has got to fix this " ) = "😉 thing!!!

Originally posted by lucifershammer
Ah, ok. Why is it called "double predestination" (and not just "predestination" ) btw?

In any case, Nemesio's stand indicates he is arguing from a libertarian perspective (something Bbarr says is rubbish), so I'd still be interested in the answer.

EDIT: Russ has got to fix this " ) = "😉 thing!!!

Why is it called "double predestination" (and not just "predestination" ) btw?

I'm scratching my memory here, but I believe that Augustine held that some people may be predestined for salvation, but that no one was predestined for condemnation. For all but those few, salvation depends on faith and grace (by whatever formulation).* “Double predestination” applies to both salvation and condemnation.

* I wonder if this is related to Augustine’s view that there were “Christians” (big quotes there) before Christ—that is before the incarnation of the pre-existing logos?

Originally posted by lucifershammer
Ah, ok. Why is it called "double predestination" (and not just "predestination" ) btw?

In any case, Nemesio's stand indicates he is arguing from a libertarian perspective (something Bbarr says is rubbish), so I'd still be interested in the answer.

EDIT: Russ has got to fix this " ) = "😉 thing!!!

"Double Predestination" scored bigger in the Medieval focus groups ("It's TWICE as Holy!"😉.

Originally posted by no1marauder
Secret Decoder Ring Theory.

There is no secret about Salvation. You either accept it or reject it. We as Christians have the GOD given responsibility, to let the world know of the Salvation offered by JESUS CHRIST. Also to warn the world, that all who reject that Salvation must pay the price of everlasting damnation.

Originally posted by blindfaith101
There is no secret about Salvation. You either accept it or reject it. We as Christians have the GOD given responsibility, to let the world know of the Salvation offered by JESUS CHRIST. Also to warn the world, that all who reject that Salvation must pay the price of everlasting damnation.

Every time there is something you so-called "Christians" have a problem explaining in your own doctrine, you fall back on the "Only Christians can truly understand" crap. That's what I call the "Secret Decoder Ring Theory" i.e. that you were given some secret knowledge merely by saying you are a "Christian". Personally I agree that the message of the Gospels is "no secret" and can be clearly read and understood. And that's by ANYBODY, "Christian" or non-"Christian".

The rest is just your usual BS.

Originally posted by blindfaith101
If you donot know who the elect are? You problely do not know the Gospel.

Do you know the names of those who are written in the Book of Life?

I'd love to see the list of names of the elect.

Originally posted by Coletti
Do you know the names of those who are written in the Book of Life?

I'd love to see the list of names of the elect.

Apparently it includes Claire Danes, Diane Keaton and Sarah Jessica Parker. http://www.life.com/Life/

EDIT: Does the Magazine of Life count??

Originally posted by vistesd
[b]Why is it called "double predestination" (and not just "predestination" ) btw?

I'm scratching my memory here, but I believe that Augustine held that some people may be predestined for salvation, but that no one was predestined for condemnation. For all but those few, salvation depends on faith and grace (by whatever formulation).* “Do ...[text shortened]... big quotes there) before Christ—that is before the incarnation of the pre-existing logos?[/b]

That sounds right. I think the "double" part was added to illustrate what opponents of Calvinism dislike about the doctrine of predestination. And I understand not liking the idea. But if God choose who will be saved, then by implication He chooses who will not be saved. If God in omnipotent - then He could save everyone - that He does not save everyone - means it is not his will that every one is saved.

If I see a house burning and see there is a child in the house - and if I can save that child but I passively let the child die - I'm I excused because I wanted the child to live and didn't act. I wish the child had lived, but I know the child could not save itself. Are you going to then look at me and say that's OK because I didn't want the child to die.

So it is with God. I do not make excuses for some not being saved. If God wishes to save someone, that's as good as God saving them. God's will is done. God not only knows who He will save, but he knows who will not. And since this must be according to his perfect will, than it is God's will that some will not be saved. I can see know way out of this - so I accept it. I'm not going to fool myself or pretend otherwise.

I can not say I "decided" to believe. My belief is my acceptance of God - I don't choose to believe one thing and not another. Can you choose to believe a red ball is green? Can you choose to believe 2+2 = 12? No. You do not choose to believe what you think is false. You believe what you understand and think is true.

Originally posted by lucifershammer
Ah, ok. Why is it called "double predestination" (and not just "predestination" ) btw?

In any case, Nemesio's stand indicates he is arguing from a libertarian perspective (something Bbarr says is rubbish), so I'd still be interested in the answer.

EDIT: Russ has got to fix this " ) = "😉 thing!!!

I don't know what it's called, Lucifershammer. And if Bbarr says it is
rubbish, I've never seen it.

As I understand predestination (e.g., from Blindfaith101's perspective),
everything unfolds according to God's will and plan. Nothing happens
that isn't part of His goal for the universe.

I think of it this way: if I set up a bunch of dominos in a line and
push the first one, they are all going to fall down sequentially over
time. Let us say that falling down is the goal (i.e., Salvation!). Now,
imagine that I set up a bunch of dominos in a line, and then a few
off to the side such that they never get knocked over (i.e., go to hell),
but I expect them to do so (even though they have no power to sway
my divine will).

That is perverse.

I know it's comforting to think that everything unfolds according to
God's plan and will. But that's absurd. Such a thing would entail that
every death in the Holocaust was for the greater good (if not pleasure)
of God and that even a single death fewer would be less ideal for the
state of the universe. This strikes me as nuts.

Now, perhaps I mistated myself above, or perhaps I have misunderstood
predestination (I've never heard the term 'double predestination' before).

But, the notion that everything is unfolding according to God's plan is
nuts. God never wanted Cain to kill Abel, God never wanted Adam and
Eve to fall from grace, God never wanted rape, murder, and theft to
happen. Things are unfolding in contrast to His will all the time.

Nemesio

Originally posted by Nemesio
...
But, the notion that everything is unfolding according to God's plan is
nuts. God never wanted Cain to kill Abel, God never wanted Adam and
Eve to fall from grace, God never wanted rape, murder, and theft to
happen. Things are unfolding in contrast to His will all the time.

Nemesio

If that is true, then why did God let it happen? Is God powerless to stop these things?