12 Nov 05
Originally posted by NemesioAnd God saw every thing that he made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day. GENESIS 1:31
A perfect human is incapable of yielding to temptation and sinning.
Adam and Eve yielded to temptation and sinned.
Therefore, God created imperfect beings.
Nemesio
Where is the imperfection?
12 Nov 05
Originally posted by NemesioYou really are not talking about the GOD that created all things. You are talking about that want to be god satan. That is the only consistant evil being.
Originally posted by The Chess Express
[b]How can God bring us from where we are now, to divine perfection?
If you were God, how would you do this?
As God, I never would have made an imperfect creation, one that was
destined to sin and fall from grace.
God has free will, right? He could choose to do evil, but He does
not (let ...[text shortened]... that changing the world starts inside each one of us. [/b]
Can't argue with this!
Nemesio[/b]
12 Nov 05
Originally posted by NemesioDefine "perfect"... or do you mean "morally perfect" - an attribute which partially defies perfect free will. Sure, "moral perfection" could be redefined (with great semantic leaps) to mean an ingrained goodness of character while retaining the freedom to choose that which goes against your character - as opposed to the concept of being incapable of evil.
A perfect human is incapable of yielding to temptation and sinning.
Adam and Eve yielded to temptation and sinned.
Therefore, God created imperfect beings.
Nemesio
12 Nov 05
6 edits
Originally posted by NemesioOriginally posted by The Chess Express
Originally posted by The Chess Express
[b]This perfect creation then would have no knowledge of evil. Without experiencing what something is, it is impossible to know it.
LOL. This is so false. Does God have a knowledge of evil?
Is God perfect? Then, God very easily COULD have created an
entity which would have knowledge of evil but, lik ...[text shortened]... The rest of your post rests on your false premise, so I won't bother
to address it.
Nemesio[/b]
[b]This perfect creation then would have no knowledge of evil. Without experiencing what something is, it is impossible to know it.
Originally posted by Nemesio
LOL. This is so false. Does God have a knowledge of evil?
Is God perfect? Then, God very easily COULD have created an
entity which would have knowledge of evil but, like God, would not
pick it.
[/b]And how would God know what evil is if he never experienced it? Perhaps he chose to experience it through us. The scripture says that what we do to each other we do to him.
The creation that you refer to (one that will be perfect like God, have knowledge of evil, and not choose it) is exactly what God is in the process of making through us.
The rest of your post rests on your false premise, so I won't bother
to address it.
How do you know that this is a false premise?
12 Nov 05
Originally posted by The Chess Express
And how would God know what evil is if he never experienced it? Perhaps he chose to experience it through us. The scripture says that what we do to each other we do to him.
So, before Creation, God wasn't omniscient (he didn't know what evil was)?
What a bizarre point of view!
The creation that you refer to (one that will be perfect like God, have knowledge of evil, and not choose it) is exactly what God is in the process of making through us.
So, God wasn't able to make us perfect from the get-go, knowing what evil was but
actively choosing against it?
God is an incompetent Creator, then! Can't even make a perfect creation!
What a bizarre point of view!
Nemesio
12 Nov 05
Originally posted by HalitoseDoes God have free will?
Define "perfect"... or do you mean "morally perfect" - an attribute which partially defies perfect free will. Sure, "moral perfection" could be redefined (with great semantic leaps) to mean an ingrained goodness of character while retaining the freedom to choose that which goes against your character - as opposed to the concept of being incapable of evil.
Is God morally perfect?
Nemesio
12 Nov 05
Originally posted by blindfaith101Let me ask you this, Blindfaith:
And God saw every thing that he made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day. GENESIS 1:31
Where is the imperfection?
If I tempted God to do evil, would He do it (cf. the Gospels with the temptation
of Jesus)? Of course, He wouldn't. He's perfect!
If Adam and Eve had been perfect, similarly, they would not have sinned.
I don't see what is so hard here.
Nemesio
12 Nov 05
4 edits
Originally posted by NemesioSo, before Creation, God wasn't omniscient (he didn't know what evil was)?
Originally posted by The Chess Express
[b]And how would God know what evil is if he never experienced it? Perhaps he chose to experience it through us. The scripture says that what we do to each other we do to him.
So, before Creation, God wasn't omniscient (he didn't know what evil was)?
What a bizarre point of view!
The creation ...[text shortened]... Creator, then! Can't even make a perfect creation!
What a bizarre point of view!
Nemesio
[/b]You never answered my question. How can there be light if there is no darkness?
So, God wasn't able to make us perfect from the get-go, knowing what evil was but actively choosing against it?
God is an incompetent Creator, then! Can't even make a perfect creation!
[/b]When was the last time you created a universe?
What a bizarre point of view!
[/b]God seems bizarre to those who don't know him.
13 Nov 05
Originally posted by The Chess Express
You never answered my question. How can there be light if there is no darkness?
Darkness is not an entity. It is an absence of light. But, ok, let's play ball. Let's
say I agree that light cannot exist without darkness (or, if you want, vice versa).
Let's further say that Good cannot exist without Evil (which I am assuming is your
point).
So what? Is God good? Yes. Does God have free will? Yes. Is God perfect? Yes.
Does God commit evil? No.
So: why couldn't He create humans that way if He was sooooooo concerned with
keeping evil from existing? He could have created all humans to be like Jesus: aware
of evil but exercising free will to eschew it?
When was the last time you created a universe?
I'm imperfect and not a god. However, if I were perfect and were a God, I would
not create something 'in my image' that was flawed such that evil would enter the
world.
Nemesio
13 Nov 05
Originally posted by HalitoseSo God has free will.
As I can't assume a complete understanding of God, my frail attempts would be speculation at most.
Free will? Yep.
Morally Perfect? Which definiton?
Does God do evil?
Nemesio
P.S., You define it then answer it. I will use your definition for the sake of
this discussion (even if I disagree with it).
13 Nov 05
2 edits
Originally posted by NemesioLet's say I agree that light cannot exist without darkness (or, if you want, vice versa).
Originally posted by The Chess Express
[b]You never answered my question. How can there be light if there is no darkness?
Darkness is not an entity. It is an absence of light. But, ok, let's play ball. Let's
say I agree that light cannot exist without darkness (or, if you want, vice versa).
Let's further say that Good cannot exist with ...[text shortened]... eate something 'in my image' that was flawed such that evil would enter the
world.
Nemesio[/b]
Let's further say that Good cannot exist without Evil (which I am assuming is your
point).
So what? Is God good? Yes. Does God have free will? Yes. Is God perfect? Yes.
Does God commit evil? No.
[/b]And how could God be good and perfect if there was no evil to contrast him? How could you say that God commits no evil if there was no evil. There would be no good or evil.
What makes God good is the fact that evil exists, and God is not evil. Before creation there was no good or evil. How could there be? This is why God had to allow there to be evil.
So: why couldn't He create humans that way if He was sooooooo concerned with
keeping evil from existing?
[/b]You’re missing the point. EVIL HAS TO EXIST. That doesn’t mean though that we have to choose evil.
The only way that we can be perfect is if we have free will and choose God.
He could have created all humans to be like Jesus: aware
of evil but exercising free will to eschew it?
[/b]He is in the process of doing this. This is why we are here, and this is what we will all become.
I'm imperfect and not a god. However, if I were perfect and were a God, I would
not create something 'in my image' that was flawed such that evil would enter the
world.
[/b]The part about us that is Gods image is perfect. It’s our human nature (delusion, ignorance, etc) that we have to loose and realize our true nature, through free will.
13 Nov 05
2 edits
Originally posted by The Chess ExpressActually, if you read Genesis carefully, God did not only allow evil; evil was an aspect of God’s creation, at least en potentia (not as a “thing,” but as a potential valuation of things and events); otherwise there could not have been a metaphorical “tree of the knowledge of good and evil” (etz ha da’at tov v’ra in the Hebrew). Also, the serpent was a “creature.”
[b]Let's say I agree that light cannot exist without darkness (or, if you want, vice versa).
Let's further say that Good cannot exist without Evil (which I am assuming is your
point).
So what? Is God good? Yes. Does God have free will? Yes. Is God perfect? Yes.
Does God commit evil? No.
[/b]And how could God be good and perfec ...[text shortened]... (delusion, ignorance, etc) that we have to loose and realize our true nature, through free will.[/b]
As I have said before tov and ra were not strictly moral terms. They can mean anything that is good/bad, pleasant/unpleasant, positive/negative, etc. For example, the expression mazel tov!, “good luck!” The alternative would be to have mazel ra, bad luck. The terms can, of course, also have a moral dimension. Although ra is generally translated as “evil ,” that English word did not always carry a moral connotation: “…in the Old and Middle English* period it meant simply ‘bad’; it is only in modern English that its connotations of ‘extreme moral wickedness’ came to the fore.”** That is, it was once perfectly acceptable to say something like, “That was an evil meal,” without implying anything immoral, or even that the meal was terribly bad—just bad, unpleasant.
Before eating of the fruit of etz ha da’at tov v’ra, the original humans had no “value consciousness,” so to speak—they had no knowledge of good and bad. The story is an allegory of coming to consciousness—either in terms of the evolution of humanity or of individual development—of the capacity and tendency to judge things good or bad, tov or ra.
* From 1066 to mid-to-late 15th century.
** John Ayto, Dictionary of Word Origins, 1990, Arcade Publishing.
13 Nov 05
2 edits
Originally posted by vistesdActually, if you read Genesis carefully, God did not only allow evil; evil was an aspect of God’s creation, at least en potentia (not as a “thing,” but as a potential valuation of things and events); otherwise there could not have been a metaphorical “tree of the knowledge of good and evil” (etz ha da’at tov v’ra in the Hebrew). Also, the serpent was a “creature.”
Actually, if you read Genesis carefully, God did not only allow evil; evil was an aspect of God’s creation, at least en potentia (not as a “thing,” but as a potential valuation of things and events); otherwise there could not have been a metaphorical “tree of the knowledge of good and evil” (etz ha da’at tov v’ra in the Hebrew). Also, the se ...[text shortened]... -late 15th century.
** John Ayto, Dictionary of Word Origins, 1990, Arcade Publishing.
Whether God “allowed” evil, or made it a part of his creation is
probably just splitting hairs. The knowledge of good and evil part is
the key point I believe.
Before eating of the fruit of etz ha da’at tov v’ra, the original humans had no “value consciousness,” so to speak—they had no knowledge of good and bad. The story is an allegory of coming to consciousness—either in terms of the evolution of humanity or of individual development—of the capacity and tendency to judge things good or bad, tov or ra.
The story of Adam and Eve is probably very symbolic, but this is
basically what I’m referring to. God realized that it is necessary to
know what good and evil is in order for good to exist; so he gave us
free will and the ability to do evil or to choose good. In this way we
eventually learn why good is the only choice, and why God is the only
truth. As God resides in each one of us, this is how God contrasts
himself as well. If God is the source of all good, then to not choose
God is to choose suffering.