17 Aug 16
Originally posted by FetchmyjunkYou're still trying to wriggle. I am not asking you about whether people can be saved by good works alone. OK? I am not asking you about that. I haven't been asking you about that, as I think you know only to well.
I don't think the thief on the cross had good works that saved him.
I am asking you - in light of the fact that you have said things like "Faith without works is not genuine faith. Faith without works is dead" - whether your belief is, in fact, that BOTH faith AND good works are needed in order to be "saved".
17 Aug 16
1 edit
Originally posted by FMFI told you that I don't think a general rule can be made since I can't see when the theif on the cross could have done good works yet in is clear that his faith saved him. God sees the motives of the heart. I don't. I cannot make a general rule as to who will be saved and who won't.
You're still trying to wriggle. I am not asking you about whether people can be saved by good works alone. OK? I am not asking you about that. I haven't been asking you about that, as I think you know only to well.
I am asking you - in light of the fact that you have said things like [b]"Faith without works is not genuine faith. Faith without works is ...[text shortened]... ether your belief is, in fact, that BOTH faith AND good works are needed in order to be "saved".
17 Aug 16
Originally posted by FetchmyjunkIf that is so, why did you say "Faith without works is not genuine faith. Faith without works is dead"?
I told you that I don't think a general rule can be made since I can't see when the theif on the cross could have done good works yet in is clear that his faith saved him.
17 Aug 16
Originally posted by FMFJames 2:14-26New King James Version (NKJV)
If that is so, why did you say "Faith without works is not genuine faith. Faith without works is dead"?
Faith Without Works Is Dead
14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your[a] works, and I will show you my faith by my[b] works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?[c] 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[d] And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
17 Aug 16
Originally posted by FetchmyjunkI am not asking you about whether people can be saved by good works alone.
James 2:14-26New King James Version (NKJV)
Faith Without Works Is Dead
You quoted: "Faith Without Works Is Dead".
So "Faith" for "salvation" needs to be augmented by "Works". Yes?
17 Aug 16
Originally posted by FMFI told you that I don't think a general rule can be made since I can't see when the thief on the cross could have done good works yet it is clear that his faith saved him. God sees the motives of the heart. I don't. I cannot make a general rule as to who will be saved and who won't. It is not my place to judge.
I am not asking you about whether people can be saved by good works alone.
You quoted: "Faith Without Works Is Dead".
So "Faith" for "salvation" needs to be augmented by "Works". Yes?
17 Aug 16
Originally posted by FetchmyjunkIf you don't mind me saying, when you said "no one is capable of righteous actions" , it sounded very much like you were offering both [1] a general rule, and you were thinking it WAS [2] your place to judge. How can you simultaneously hold BOTH that "no one is capable of righteous actions" AND "God sees the motives of the heart. I don't."?
I told you that I don't think a general rule can be made since I can't see when the thief on the cross could have done good works yet it is clear that his faith saved him. God sees the motives of the heart. I don't. I cannot make a general rule as to who will be saved and who won't. It is not my place to judge.
17 Aug 16
Originally posted by FMFRomans 3:10-12English Standard Version (ESV)
If you don't mind me saying, when you said "no one is capable of righteous actions" , it sounded very much like you were offering both [1] a general rule, and you were thinking it WAS [2] your place to judge. How can you simultaneously hold BOTH that "no one is capable of righteous actions" AND "God sees the motives of the heart. I don't."?
10 as it is written:
“None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”
Originally posted by FetchmyjunkWhat did the four Gospels say about the thieves who were executed at the same time as Jesus? This seems to be something you place great store on.
I don't think the thief on the cross had good works that saved him. And even if he had, the works themselves did not save him.
Originally posted by FetchmyjunkAnd you are convinced that this piece of writing from the 1st century applies to both me and you?
Romans 3:10-12English Standard Version (ESV)
10 as it is written:
“None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”