Somebody help me...

Originally posted by KellyJay
No, that is not what I'm getting at! I'm asking you a very simple question,
and you refuse to answer it! When you claimed you were a Christian, do
you now believe that you had was false? You seem more than fine
saying, you are not a Christian any more, so it should be a yes or no
answer.
Kelly

I do not have Christian beliefs any more. When I was a Christian I did have Christian beliefs. Can't be clearer than that.

Originally posted by KellyJay
Listen, I've done pages with him on the point that bothers me about his
story. It didn't have anything to do with that doctrine, it had everything
to do with how he describes it.

Had he said, I knew the Lord but walked away, okay, I agree change of heart.

Had he said, I walked as a Christian for years, but realized it was false than
that would be o ...[text shortened]... f actually coming to the Lord, if his
blinded heart ever gets a taste of the real thing.
Kelly

If you believe in the doctrine that a Christian can lose their salvation, then why can you not accept that this may be what has happened in FMF's case?

Originally posted by divegeester
If you believe in the doctrine that a Christian can lose their salvation, then why can you not accept that this may be what has happened in FMF's case?

If the twenty-years-ago-FMF were to meet the today-FMF, the former would believe that the latter had lost his salvation.

Originally posted by FMF
If the twenty-years-ago-FMF were to meet the today-FMF, the former would believe that the latter had lost his salvation.

Exactly.

I am not a proponent of that doctrine as you will probably be aware. However my recent challenges to Christians in this forum have been to "examine your beliefs" not because I claim to hold more truth, just that what a Christian believes should bear up under case-study style scrutiny. In this case I am interested to understand how Kelly rationalises his believe that FMF could NEVER have been a Christian with his held doctrine that a Christian can lose their salvation. It appears that he is holding this doctrine as true and yet denying FMF to be an example of it, for some reason.

Originally posted by FMF
I do not have Christian beliefs any more. When I was a Christian I did have Christian beliefs. Can't be clearer than that.

Oh, I beg to differ! You could be very clear, but for some reason known only
to you, you refuse! Just say it, if you think you are clear!

Does this sum you up? "The beliefs, the reality I thought was true when I
was a Christian was all false, it was not true! I have renounced them and
I'm no longer call myself a Christian!"

Does that fit your status, past and present?
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
Oh, I beg to differ! You could be very clear, but for some reason known only
to you, you refuse! Just say it, if you think you are clear!

Does this sum you up? "The beliefs, the reality I thought was true when I
was a Christian was all false, it was not true! I have renounced them and
I'm no longer call myself a Christian!"

Does that fit your status, past and present?
Kelly

Well my beliefs have changed, if that's what you are getting at. I do not claim to be a Christian any more but this does not alter how real my Christian beliefs were to me when I held them. My Christian beliefs were as real to me back then as your Christian beliefs are real to you now.

Originally posted by FMF
Well my beliefs have changed, if that's what you are getting at. I do not claim to be a Christian any more but this does not alter how real my Christian beliefs were to me when I held them. My Christian beliefs were as real to me back then as your Christian beliefs are real to you now.

You old beliefs couldn't have been that real to you since you rejected them.
Yet, you still will not come out and say it.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
You old beliefs couldn't have been that real to you since you rejected them.
Yet, you still will not come out and say it.
Kelly

My old beliefs were very strong and very real to me.

Originally posted by FMF
My old beliefs were very strong and very real to me.

That explains why you rejected them!
You still cannot say, or will not say your old beliefs were false!
You don't mind saying how strong they were, but not false or wrong!
Kelly

Originally posted by FMF
Well my beliefs have changed, if that's what you are getting at. I do not claim to be a Christian any more but this does not alter how real my Christian beliefs were to me when I held them. My Christian beliefs were as real to me back then as your Christian beliefs are real to you now.

Please allow me to throw in something from the side.

The words " Christian Beliefs" are being bandied about here as if everyone was agreed, and understood, exactly what these are.

This Forum is proof (if any were needed) that this is certainly NOT the case. There are doctrines like YEC, verbal inerrancy of scripture, etc etc that are being espoused as "Christian Beliefs" which are merely man-made doctrines that divide us. Even Heaven and Hell has been debated, and what is meant by Salvation.

To some (and I think that RJH has actually said it) I am not a Christian either if I do not subscribe to these (which I don't).

Looking at FMF's position, and self-description, I would postulate that he has actually "graduated" from some artificial spiritual position which had been imposed on him in his yourh, which he has outgrown. From being internally inconisistent (i.e. believing something which in his deepest psyche knew could't be true) he moved to congruency in accepting the world and the universe as he understands it.

Congratulations!

Originally posted by KellyJay
That explains why you rejected them!
You still cannot say, or will not say your old beliefs were false!
You don't mind saying how strong they were, but not false or wrong!
Kelly

How can you say that YOUR OWN beliefs are true or false? You cannot!

All you can say is: "The beliefs that I currently hold I BELIEVE to be true!"

Will you admit that your beliefs have changed over time? I know mine have - frequently!

I would go so far as to say that if they have NOT changed, you have NOT grown!

Originally posted by KellyJay
Listen, I've done pages with him on the point that bothers me about his
story. It didn't have anything to do with that doctrine, it had everything
to do with how he describes it.

Had he said, I knew the Lord but walked away, okay, I agree change of heart.

Had he said, I walked as a Christian for years, but realized it was false than
that would be o ...[text shortened]... f actually coming to the Lord, if his
blinded heart ever gets a taste of the real thing.
Kelly

3rd time of asking:

If you believe in the doctrine that a Christian can lose their salvation, then why can you not accept that this may be what has happened in FMF's case?

Originally posted by KellyJay
That explains why you rejected them!
You still cannot say, or will not say your old beliefs were false!
You don't mind saying how strong they were, but not false or wrong!

Regardless of how strong and real to me they once were, I don't hold those Christian beliefs any more.

Originally posted by CalJust
The words " Christian Beliefs" are being bandied about here as if everyone was agreed, and understood, exactly what these are.

I have never claimed that my Christian beliefs were the same as KellyJay's were [or are].

Originally posted by FMF
I have never claimed that my Christian beliefs were the same as KellyJay's were [or are].

I was actually referring to KJ's use of those words, and him trying to push you into some corner.