The Con Game

Originally posted by sonship

But if there was already death or animals before man sinned then the Holy Bible is in error and it would be foolish to believe the Gospel of Christ.

Nonsense.

We know that before Adam sinned, iniquity was found in the anointed Day Star who became Satan. And we know that other beings followed him.

The EXTENT of that rebellio ...[text shortened]... n the evolution you have to argue for AFTER the flood is as hefty as any other argued evolution.

A strawman argument. According to the Holy Bible, it was man's sin that brought about death. So if and when an angel sinned is irrelevant to that point.

For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

(1 Corinthians 15:21-25 KJV)

Originally posted by BigDoggProblem
What do I get if I accept your offer?

The best conceivable thing.

What consequences obtain if I refuse your offer?

The worst conceivable thing.

What must I do to go from this one staggering result to the other?

Just pray a little prayer. It will take you about a minute.

Hardly, saying a little prayer will get you nothing.

Originally posted by KellyJay
Hardly, saying a little prayer will get you nothing.

Unless you have faith and believe in Christ, right?

Originally posted by RJHinds

A strawman argument. According to the Holy Bible, it was man's sin that brought about death. So if and when an angel sinned is irrelevant to that point.

I don't think a preadamic rebellion of Satan and the unknown devastation it wrought on worlds or created lives we know little about, compromises Paul's teaching that through Adam all die.

For one, when Paul says "Therefore just as through one man sin entered into the world, and through sin, death and thus death passed on to all men because all have sinned - " he seems to be focused on human beings.

If no insect born ever died the world before Adam fell would have been filled with insects and "creeping things" before it would have been filled with people.

If we adopt a scientific uniformatarian view if the way things work in the world today and superimpose it on Adam's world before his fall, we introduce some other problems.

The oil pitch which Noah used to coat the walls of the ark God told him to built was a petroleum substance -

"Make yourself an ark of gopher wood you shall make rooms in the ark and shall cover it within and without with pitch." (Genesis 5:14)

We see then tar pits of a petroleum substance indicating the death or organic material, prior to the flood of Noah. Some teachers argue that all the coal deposits are the result of a global deluge of Noah. You will now have to make some kind of imaginative exception for the tar pits in the earth before the flood.

What do we get? Speculation. Our knowledge, our "science" is not conclusive.

Maybe there are some limits on what Paul means by "the world" into which death entered through Adam. Or maybe there are some limitations on WHO or WHAT he means concerning "death".

Romans 5 again ... "as through one man sin entered into the world, and through sin death ..." tells us about all the descendents of Adam who died. We don't know if nothing at all could not die in a previous world that became waste, wild, void, empty as a result of the judgment of God.

The pit of tar indicates some death had taken place and a residue of it was in the ground before the mass compressed forests of living organisims were produced in the flood.

We have on the walls of caves drawings of animals known to us today. Can you show me a CLEARLY illustrated triceratops on any of these cave drawings? Can you show me an unmistakably outlined brontosaurus on some cave drawing? Can you show me a unmistakably painted terradactyl on a cave wall? Can you point to a drawing of a stegosaurus which no one can mistake ?

Such a clearly illustrated prehistoric animals would make news in the science institutions around the world. Why could ancient men be so clear in their drawing of an antelope or buffalo yet not be able to clearly outline a tyrannosaurus, stegosaurus, terradactyl, or brontosaurus?

Could they have been that bored that they would not have left us one picture of one of these impressive large animals? If we are astounded at the sight of the huge skeletons of these beasts why should early man have yawned at the sight of one and favored the drawing of only other more familiar creatures?

Anyway, going just by Scriptures - Romans 5:12-21 appears to carry its main focus on Adam as a man and the descendents of Adam as people. It is hard to insist that everything about biology can be deduced from that passage.

Now your First Corinthian passage -

For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

(1 Corinthians 15:21-25 KJV)

I appreciate the total victory over death represented in this passage.

But "all die" in Adam and "all made alive" in Christ is hard to extend to "all" the biological world. We don't believe that every insect will be resurrected that has ever died. Though we believe all human beings will be resurrected and judged who have died.

So I think there is something not totally told us in Paul's revelation there.

To be fair, Paul could mean that all living things died in Adam but only all human beings are made alive in the end in Christ. But it is possible, I think, that God's foreknowledge of Adam's sin is reflected in the death of living things before Adam even existed but Satan DID.

This would be a matter of God's sovereign transcendence over time as we know it. We as Christians know "all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose." (Romans 8:28)

The way in which God orchestrated all the happenings of time and space to work for His eternal purpose probably escape our full comprehension.

Death of creatures in a world which became waste and empty (Genesis 1:2) upon the judgement of God doesn't make not true Romans or First Corinthians concerning man's need for salvation from sin and death and Christ's total victory.

Some teachers hold up Romans 5 and First Corinthians 15 as proof that there could be no sin and death in the universe anywhere, in any world, in any epoch or age, before Adam's fall. I don't think that those passages can necessarily prove that.

I would not say it is a strawman argument. I would say it is not a strong enough argument.

Originally posted by sonship

A strawman argument. According to the Holy Bible, it was man's sin that brought about death. So if and when an angel sinned is irrelevant to that point.

I don't think a preadamic rebellion of Satan and the unknown devastation it wrought on worlds or created lives we know little about, compromises Paul's teaching that through Adam all ...[text shortened]... would not say it is a strawman argument. I would say it is not a strong enough argument.

Anyone who takes the time to consult a reasonable dictionary of geology will find that pitch can be extracted by distilling or heating wood. In fact, prior to the rise of the petroleum and coal industries, this was exactly how pitch was made.

Anyone who had cut down as many trees as Noah and his helpers for the manufacture of an ocean-going ark would certainly have found out about tree resins. If Europeans had a well known and widely used method of making pitch before the discovery of petroleum, obviously Noah could also have had the same satisfactory way of waterproofing the ark with its covering of pitch.

http://creation.com/the-pitch-for-noahs-ark

http://www.angelfire.com/mi/dinosaurs/dinocarving.html

http://worldnewsdailyreport.com/prehistoric-cave-art-depicting-humans-hunting-dinosaurs-discovered-in-kuwait/

Originally posted by RJHinds
Unless you have faith and believe in Christ, right?

Well, I'd say unless you and Jesus get on good terms even believing in
God is not enough. The devil believes and that is not counted unto him
as righteousness. Just saying some words and acknowledging Christ could
put you in the same boat as the sons of Sceva in Acts 19:

13But also some of the Jewish exorcists, who went from place to place, attempted to name over those who had the evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus, saying, "I adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preaches." 14Seven sons of one Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, were doing this. 15And the evil spirit answered and said to them, "I recognize Jesus, and I know about Paul, but who are you?"

Being born again is a real process, it is a real thing to come to come to God
and ask Him for forgiveness in Christ Jesus! People can go through the
motions and say these things with the same motivation as those that want
to rob a bank, just get something out of the Lord for nothing.

While those that come to God, and I mean they are not playing around they
are coming to God for forgiveness they can believe God will honor His Word!
I don't believe in a cheap grace where we can reject God as Lord and be
forgiven, we cannot earn it so it isn't by merit, but it is entering into His
Kingdom. If they have no intention on obeying God why call Him Lord, if
all they want is a get out of Hell free card they will in my opinion die in
their sins.

Originally posted by KellyJay
Hardly, saying a little prayer will get you nothing.

If you believe in a more evolved, realistic spirituality than that, well, congrats.

Originally posted by RJHinds
Anyone who takes the time to consult a reasonable dictionary of geology will find that pitch can be extracted by distilling or heating wood. In fact, prior to the rise of the petroleum and coal industries, this was exactly how pitch was made.

Anyone who had cut down as many trees as Noah and his helpers for the manufacture of an ocean-going ark would cert ...[text shortened]... ewsdailyreport.com/prehistoric-cave-art-depicting-humans-hunting-dinosaurs-discovered-in-kuwait/

Anyone who takes the time to consult a reasonable dictionary of geology will find that pitch can be extracted by distilling or heating wood. In fact, prior to the rise of the petroleum and coal industries, this was exactly how pitch was made.

That it CAN be produced by this method does not insist that ALL of the pitch in the earth WAS produced in this manner.

Anyone who had cut down as many trees as Noah and his helpers for the manufacture of an ocean-going ark would certainly have found out about tree resins. If Europeans had a well known and widely used method of making pitch before the discovery of petroleum, obviously Noah could also have had the same satisfactory way of waterproofing the ark with its covering of pitch.

Included in definition:

any of various heavy dark viscid substances obtained as a residue from the distillation of tars See also coal-tar pitch
2.
any of various similar substances, such as asphalt, occurring as natural deposits
3.
any of various similar substances obtained by distilling certain organic substances so that they are incompletely carbonized

He COULD have made his own pitch. Okay.
We don't know that he DID so. Do we ?

We have mentioned that latter in Exodus 2:3. Sure, the mother of Moses could have made her own tar and pitch also. Then she could have found it in exactly the same manner as Noah found it.

I can only write this much right now.

Originally posted by RJHinds


Anyone who had cut down as many trees as Noah and his helpers for the manufacture of an ocean-going ark would certainly have found out about tree resins. If Europeans had a well known and widely used method of making pitch before the discovery of petroleum, obviously Noah could also have had the same satisfactory way of waterproofing the ark with its coveri ...[text shortened]... ewsdailyreport.com/prehistoric-cave-art-depicting-humans-hunting-dinosaurs-discovered-in-kuwait/[/b]

http://www.angelfire.com/mi/dinosaurs/dinocarving.html

It will take me time to go through this material.
It is a fact that in South America fake ancient coins and artifacts are made and SOLD to people under the guise that real ancient artifacts are being discovered from ancient civilizations.

As I read through what I can find on Javier Carbrero I will keep an open mind but not a naive one. Where money can be made on giving people so-called ancient artifacts or fossils, creating fakes, people WILL profiteer on that. "Buyer Beware".

I have seen on a program where the maker of such phony ancient Meso American coins admitted that he profited on the sale of such things. You don't even have to explain to people what it is or vouch for its authenticity. All you have to do is MAKE these thngs, make them LOOK ancient, and put them out there in places for buyers to find and pay money for them.

But I'll give your material here some time.

Acambaro figures - as ancient carvings alledgedly made by people co-existing with dinosaurs.

From Wikapedia -

The Acámbaro figures were uncovered by a German immigrant and hardware merchant named Waldemar Julsrud. According to Dennis Swift, a young-Earth creationist and major proponent of the figures, Julsrud stumbled upon the figures while riding his horse and hired a local farmer to dig up the remaining figures, paying him for each figure he brought back. Eventually, the farmer and his assistants brought him over 32,000 figures which included representations of everything from the supposed dinosaurs to peoples from all over the world including Egyptians, Sumerians, and "bearded Caucasians".[1]

With a straight face, RJHinds, you expect me to believe these "findings" were not a lucrative source of income for some shrewd person/s in Mexico ? With a straight face ?

The figures attracted little attention from scholars and scientists, and when Julsrud began to assert that they were accurate representations of dinosaurs created by an ancient society, he only alienated himself further from serious scientific investigation. Tabloids and popular media sources covered the story, however, and the figures steadily became somewhat famous.[citation needed]

Archaeologist Charles C. Di Peso was working for the Amerind Foundation, an anthropological organization dedicated to preserving Native American culture.[b] Di Peso examined the figures and determined that they were not authentic, and had instead been produced by local modern-day farmers.[3][4]

Did you consider this or just dismiss him as probably another "Evilutionist" ? I think you HAVE to factor in this in your considerations.

He concluded that the figurines were indeed fakes: their surfaces displayed no signs of age; no dirt was packed into their crevices; and though some figurines were broken, no pieces were missing and no broken surfaces were worn. Furthermore, the excavation’s stratigraphy clearly showed that the artifacts were placed in a recently dug hole filled with a mixture of the surrounding archaeological layers. DiPeso also learned that a local family had been making and selling these figurines to Julsrud for a peso apiece since 1944, presumably inspired by films shown at Acámbaro’s cinema, locally available comic books and newspapers, and accessible day trips to Mexico City’s Museo Nacional.[5]

Money is to be made in fossil fabrication and other very old artifacts that the shrewd know are VALUABLE to someone.

RJHinds, I think I remain skeptical of the authenticity of these thousands of items supposedly proving people saw dinosaurs in the distant past.

Dating:

Attempts have been made to date the figures using thermoluminescence (TL) dating. The earliest results, from tests done when TL dating was in its infancy, suggested a date around 2500 BC.[5] However, later tests contradicted these findings. In 1976, Gary W. Carriveau and Mark C. Han attempted to date twenty Acámbaro figures using TL dating. They found that the figures had been fired at temperatures between 450 °C and 650 °C, which contradicted claims that these figures had been fired at temperatures too low for them to be accurately dated. However, all of the samples failed the "plateau test", which indicated that dates obtained for the Acámbaro figures using standard high-temperature TL dating techniques were unreliable and lacked any chronological significance. Based on the degree of signal regeneration found in remeasured samples, they estimated that the figures tested had been fired approximately 30 years prior to 1969.[9]

RJHinds, how are you so sure you have not been taken for a ride on these ancient carvings of dinosaurs ?

Originally posted by RJHinds

http://worldnewsdailyreport.com/prehistoric-cave-art-depicting-humans-hunting-dinosaurs-discovered-in-kuwait

The drawing on the wall does look like a dinosaur. But the sensational nature of Bob Flanagan's other efforts lead me to suspect he's just into the sensational for its own sake.

His archive of other submissions include:

Man Thrown Out of Casino After Winning at Roulette 16 Times in a Row

Australia: 600-Pound Woman Gives Birth to 40-Pound Baby

New Jersey Man to Marry his Own Daughter in Hope of Avoiding Jail Time

New Poll Reveals Obama More Popular Than Jesus

Louisiana ‘Demon Child’ Burns Down 4th House in a Row

Missouri Pig Brothel Dismantled During FBI Raid

FDA Issues Warning Over Raw Sewage in Ice Cream

Unidentified Creature Washes Up on Australian Lakeshore

etc. etc. etc. etc.

I don't mean to invoke a genetic fallacy. But doesn't it appear that you are entrusting some faith to an Internet crackpot sensationalist ?

And for all these articles WHERE is his documentation ?

Originally posted by sonship

A strawman argument. According to the Holy Bible, it was man's sin that brought about death. So if and when an angel sinned is irrelevant to that point.

I don't think a preadamic rebellion of Satan and the unknown devastation it wrought on worlds or created lives we know little about, compromises Paul's teaching that through Adam all ...[text shortened]... would not say it is a strawman argument. I would say it is not a strong enough argument.

""Therefore just as through one man sin entered into the world, and through sin, death and thus death passed on to all men because all have sinned...": which "death"?

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
""Therefore just as through one man sin entered into the world, and through sin, death and thus death passed on to all men because all have sinned...": which "death"?

Grampy,

I do not really get the import of your post. I know you like to be very concise.

What exactly does the question which "death"? mean ?

Do you mean which in terms of "death" and "the second death"?

By the way, the book I obtained on Satan's rebellion I have been looking for since I moved. The book on the Integrity of Christ I read quite a bit of. It seemed to me that the word Integrity was being used somewhat as a synonym for the word holy and/or holiness.

The medical details about the virgin birth and the genes, I just had to place on the back burner for another time.

Just letting you know I did read some of the books by the pastor/teachers you so highly regard, which have been a help to you.

Originally posted by sonship

A strawman argument. According to the Holy Bible, it was man's sin that brought about death. So if and when an angel sinned is irrelevant to that point.

I don't think a preadamic rebellion of Satan and the unknown devastation it wrought on worlds or created lives we know little about, compromises Paul's teaching that through Adam all ...[text shortened]... would not say it is a strawman argument. I would say it is not a strong enough argument.

YOU SAY:

For one, when Paul says "Therefore just as through one man sin entered into the world, and through sin, death and thus death passed on to all men because all have sinned - " he seems to be focused on human beings.

The Apostle Paul may have been focused more on humans, but that does not mean he is excluding all other creations of God or he would not have said the following:

For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body. For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it.

(Romans 8:18-25 NASB)

YOU SAY:

If no insect born ever died the world before Adam fell would have been filled with insects and "creeping things" before it would have been filled with people.

According to God's word (Genesis 1:25-31) the "creeping things" were created on the same day just before Adam and Eve were created, so it was not very long before Adam sinned and death entered into the world.

Certainly I am not suggesting that every insect be resurrected with humans for they are not even soulish creatures. However, God must have some reason for their creation as he has for ours.

The only point I was making is that death entered the world when man sinned, not before, according to the Holy Bible. If you say otherwise, just quote the verse that says death occurred before Adam sinned.

Originally posted by RJHinds

The Apostle Paul may have been focused more on humans, but that does not mean he is excluding all other creations of God or he would not have said the following:
[quote] For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. For the anxious longing of the creation waits eager ...[text shortened]... Bible. If you say otherwise, just quote the verse that says death occurred before Adam sinned.[/b]

According to God's word (Genesis 1:25-31) the "creeping things" were created on the same day just before Adam and Eve were created, so it was not very long before Adam sinned and death entered into the world.

I don't doubt that we are to understand that for Adam's world creatures were created with him. But there was a world judged with the judgment of the Daystar who became Satan.

That world may have contained creatures. Maybe dinosaurs were a part of that judged and destroyed era. The website you referred me to was terribly unconvincing. I think just as fake fossils could go for sale to those longing to find evidence of evolution fake ancient art of dinosaurs could produce the same result.

Demons were left off from the former age.
The bad angels were left over from a former age.
And God may have seen to it that some modern day creeping things were reminiscent of that age - ie. reptiles. This could be for our education.

Certainly I am not suggesting that every insect be resurrected with humans for they are not even soulish creatures. However, God must have some reason for their creation as he has for ours.

I agree that they are not the soulish creatures. And I think the reason for some of the nuisance creeping things, and even those of real danger, are sovereignly created for lessons to man.

God has His book of revelation.
And God has His "book" of nature.

We learn something of the goings on in the universe from both.

Satan came as one of these creeping things.
There may be significance to this as to some connection to the reptilian like age that was destroyed in judgement.

The only point I was making is that death entered the world when man sinned, not before, according to the Holy Bible. If you say otherwise, just quote the verse that says death occurred before Adam sinned.

I cannot quote any passage explicitly mentioning death before Adam died.

I can refer to unrighteousness before Adam died.
And IF that (SINNING) had some effect on previous lives, it is not too unreasonable to believe that they died.

Besides, the dead who come out of the sea in Revelation 20:13 are distinct from the DEAD in Hades. We have argued that in the past. The dead in the SEA are probably the disembodied spirits which are today's demons.

They lost their bodies and that is why they seek to inhabit the bodies of fallen humans, or PIGS or other animals IF they cannot obtain a human.

The removal of the SEA in the new heaven and the new earth and the removal of Death and Hades are linked.

So this passage could be used to indicate death of something at least, before the death of Adam - REV. 20:13 -

English Standard Version
And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.

New American Standard Bible
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.

Since ALL human beings who DIE go to Hades, whether having died in the desert or on a mountain or in a forest or on the sea, it is perculiar that the Bible makes a distinction between the dead given up by Death and Hades and the dead given up by the sea. The separate mention of the dead in the sea probably refers to the preadamic beings of unknown type who lost their bodies and became demon spirits.

No, demons are not fallen angels.

Anyway, you remain probably on your view and I remain on mine.
We agree that the last enemy is death and Jesus Christ is the total Victor over sin and death.

- sonship