The Con Game

Originally posted by KellyJay
Well, I'd say unless you and Jesus get on good terms even believing in
God is not enough. The devil believes and that is not counted unto him
as righteousness. Just saying some words and acknowledging Christ could
put you in the same boat as the sons of Sceva in Acts 19:

13But also some of the Jewish exorcists, who went from place to place, attempted ...[text shortened]... rd, if
all they want is a get out of Hell free card they will in my opinion die in
their sins.

I don't believe I said anything that implies that the devil has faith and prays to seek after the Lord. Of course we are told that God will not grant requests that are against His will. But other than that Jesus told His disciples that when any two or more are gathered together, if you ask the Father anything in my name believing in faith then I will do it.

Originally posted by gswilm

According to God's word (Genesis 1:25-31) the "creeping things" were created on the same day just before Adam and Eve were created, so it was not very long before Adam sinned and death entered into the world.

I don't doubt that we are to understand that for Adam's world creatures were created with him. But there was a world judged ...[text shortened]... e last enemy is death and Jesus Christ is the total Victor over sin and death.

- sonship

Perhaps I picked a couple unconvincing websites concerning dinosaurs living with man, since I just picked the first couple that showed up on my google search without really reading all of it. But the point was to show that there is evidence, convincing or not, that supports that the dinosaur is not nearly as old as evolutionist tell you. We even have a description of a dinosaur in the Holy Bible. I am sure you must already know about that.

I agree that the angels, including the Daystar, were in the spiritual heavenly world and witnesses to the creation of the physical heavens and the earth. But your information is terribly unconvincing that there was any physical world on this earth before the creations reported in Genesis chapter one.

All the fossils can easily be explained as a result of floods, especially the worldwide flood of Noah's day. Floods and volcanic eruptions have been shown to bury dead things in many layers quickly in a few days and weeks. It does not take millions of years, in fact, it is known that gradual processes will not produce any fossils at all.

Originally posted by RJHinds

Perhaps I picked a couple unconvincing websites concerning dinosaurs living with man, since I just picked the first couple that showed up on my google search without really reading all of it.

That can be dangerous.
It can hurt one's credibility to present bogus references to evidence.

But the point was to show that there is evidence, convincing or not, that supports that the dinosaur is not nearly as old as evolutionist tell you. We even have a description of a dinosaur in the Holy Bible. I am sure you must already know about that.

I would have to review that matter.

I agree that the angels, including the Daystar, were in the spiritual heavenly world and witnesses to the creation of the physical heavens and the earth. But your information is terribly unconvincing that there was any physical world on this earth before the creations reported in Genesis chapter one.

Well then please explain to me a few things.

1.) If the universe is older than 6,000 years, exactly how does that do damage to the teaching of Christ being the one in Whom all are made alive ? (Refer Romans 5:12-21)

Does this reduce the effectiveness of His redemption ?
Does this make Him less the Lord and Savior ?
Does it make Him untrustworthy in any way ?

2.) What in the book of Romans, either in chapter 5 or elsewhere, is severely undermined if the universe is older than 6,000 years ?

Does it detract from God being the Creator ?
Does it undermine Christ being God incarnate ?
Does it make redemption or salvation unnecessary ?

All the fossils can easily be explained as a result of floods, especially the worldwide flood of Noah's day. Floods and volcanic eruptions have been shown to bury dead things in many layers quickly in a few days and weeks. It does not take millions of years, in fact, it is known that gradual processes will not produce any fossils at all.

If "millions of years" are involved in anything concerning the PAST of the whole universe, exactly HOW does this do damage to

a.) God being the Creator ?
b.) Man being made in the image and likeness of God ?
c.) Man needing Christ as Lord and Savior ?
d.) Jesus dying a redemptive death and rising in a victorious resurrection?

Please lay out HOW any of these tenets of my faith are undercut by a belief that the past of the universe may involve "millions of years".

Originally posted by sonship

Perhaps I picked a couple unconvincing websites concerning dinosaurs living with man, since I just picked the first couple that showed up on my google search without really reading all of it.

That can be dangerous.
It can hurt one's credibility to present bogus references to evidence.

[quote]
But the point was to show that the ...[text shortened]... my faith are undercut by a belief that the past of the universe may involve "millions of years".

My credibility must not be very good with you anyway, if making a human mistake once in awhile hurts my credibility with you.

You may be able to believe in billions and millions of history of the earth before the creation week and still believe in the teachings of Christ, but to me that would undermine belief in the teachings of Christ.

The Holy Scriptures do not teach billions or millions of years of death, suffering, and disease before Adam's sin brought the curses from God on man, as well as on the earth and all creation. The Genesis account makes it clear that by the miracles of God the physical creation of the universe took only six days. If that is not so, then the fourth commandment written by the finger of God is not valid because it would be based on a lie. This would bring strong doubt to belief in miracles and all the teachings of Christ, who refers to God in the beginning of creation bringing Adam and Eve together in marriage as the foundation for all marriages to follow.

Does this reduce the effectiveness of His redemption ? YES
Does this make Him less the Lord and Savior ? YES
Does it make Him untrustworthy in any way ? YES
Does it detract from God being the Creator ? YES
Does it undermine Christ being God incarnate ? YES
Does it make redemption or salvation unnecessary ? YES

If "millions of years" are involved in anything concerning the PAST of the whole universe, exactly HOW does this do damage to

a.) God being the Creator ?
God would be a liar if He did not do it in only six days like He said He did.

b.) Man being made in the image and likeness of God ?
Billions of years makes evolution more credible and so man might have evolved from an ape.

c.) Man needing Christ as Lord and Savior ?
Man would have no moral standard for sin and no need for a Savior.

d.) Jesus dying a redemptive death and rising in a victorious resurrection?
This would no longer make any sense because it would be based on the fall of man in the Genesis account which would no longer be believed.

A belief in millions of years of evolution not only contradicts the clear teaching of Genesis and the rest of Scripture but also challenges the character of God. God told us in Genesis that He created the whole universe and everything in it in six days, nothing about millions of years of death and evolution.

But if death existed throughout man's evolution and was a natural part of that evolution, then how can it be a consequence of sin, since it existed before sin occurred? Why would Jesus want to defeat it?

Where in scripture does it say that the death of animals occurred before Adam sinned?

Originally posted by RJHinds
I don't believe I said anything that implies that the devil has faith and prays to seek after the Lord. Of course we are told that God will not grant requests that are against His will. But other than that Jesus told His disciples that when any two or more are gathered together, if you ask the Father anything in my name believing in faith then I will do it.

Don't combine two pieces of scripture together to create a point that isn't
there in context. We don't gather together to get what we want. We can
ask the Lord for things in His name, but our motivation should be to
glorify God not acquire things for our own desires. We can gather and He
promised to be there if two or more are there, what greater desire could
we have than that?

Originally posted by RJHinds

My credibility must not be very good with you anyway, if making a human mistake once in awhile hurts my credibility with you.

Actually, acknowledging a human mistake can improve one's credibility.
In the future I may explore some more documentation as you referred to.

You may be able to believe in billions and millions of history of the earth before the creation week and still believe in the teachings of Christ, but to me that would undermine belief in the teachings of Christ.

Does the realization that the physical SPACE of the universe is far, far, FAR vaster than originally supposed by 1rst century Christians, also undermine the Gospel ?

Does bigger than expected SPACE also undermine for you trust in the Gospel? I mean Genesis says the people in the Tower of Babel thought to build a tower up to heaven. Now we know they didn't make even a micrscopic little jump. Billions and billions and trillions of miles are out there of the heavens.

Does the latter realization of the billion times larger space of the cosmos, cause some doubt in you your trust in the Gospel ?

The Holy Scriptures do not teach billions or millions of years of death, suffering, and disease before Adam's sin brought the curses from God on man, as well as on the earth and all creation.

Maybe it does not TEACH such in a systematic way. But does it FORBID that we understand it could be POSSIBLE ?

Sure, there is no New Testament epistle dedicated to how many Hebrew years (360 days) elapsed since God called all things not being as being (Rom. 4:17). It is not systematically laid out.

Is it taught that we cannot realize that many more years the cosmos may have existed then assumed by some ancient pre-scientific Christians believed ?

Earlier Christians and unbelievers also once believed that the earth was standing STILL with everything else in the universe revolving around the earth. There were Scriptures which caused them to hold that the earth was FIXED and MOTIONLESS on pillars. That was pillars as they were familiar with in their architecture.

Psalm 96:10

English Standard Version
Say among the nations, “The LORD reigns! Yes, the world is established; it shall never be moved; he will judge the peoples with equity.”

King James Bible
Say among the heathen that the LORD reigneth: the world also shall be established that it shall not be moved: he shall judge the people righteously.

Knowing now that the earth does indeed MOVE rotating, circling the sun, moving along with the rest of the solar system around the center of the galaxy, and move with the galaxy as it moves through space, undermine the Gospel ?

Should Christians today fight to be STILL EARTHERS in order to fight for the truth of Christ being Son of God, dying and rising a redemptive salvation? Or should we consider that earlier assumptions of a none moving earth were just that, imperfect assumptions based on interpretive exegesis according to by-gone ages of knowledge about the physical world ?

The Genesis account makes it clear that by the miracles of God the physical creation of the universe took only six days.

The word CREATE is used in relation to God creating the heavens and the earth in the beginning (Genesis 1:1)

The word CREATED is used concerning the life of man and of sea animals (Genesis 1:21; 1:27).

Exodus 20:11 regarding God making the world in six days uses a word meaning to work with already existing material.

That there is some overlap between the Hebrew word for CREATE and the word for MAKE, I would acknowledge. That they ALWAYS must be perfectly synonymous would be an unwarranted assumption.

If God worked for six days upon a world that was made waste and empty and without form and void, having been judged by God, how does that undermine the Gospel ?

If realization that the EARTH MOVES indeed according to the language of modern science doesn't damage the Gospel of Christ why does a preadamic age of possibly much more time than we first assumed, damage the Gospel?

Why do you not fight for the EARTH being on pillars and perfectly still?

Psalm 46:2 says that even if the earth SHOULD move we can still trust in God.

English Standard Version
Therefore we will not fear though the earth gives way, though the mountains be moved into the heart of the sea,

King James 2000 Bible
Therefore we will not fear, though the earth be removed, and though the mountains be carried into the midst of the sea;

You see? The Still Earthers of 1,000 years ago could have taken comfort that even if the earth on pillars DID move, the God of salvation they could still trust. So if they discovered that the earth revolved around the sun rather than vica-versa, there was no reason to doubt faith in God and Christ.

So if we should discover that the universe may be older than what some assumptions about genealogies of early men would indicate, why need we fear the Gospel is undermine?

If that is not so, then the fourth commandment written by the finger of God is not valid because it would be based on a lie.

Is it a LIE that the earth moves?
Is every Christian after Copernicus who understands an heliocentric solar system in which the EARTH MOVES, a backslidden turncoat who has capitulated to a LIE ?

Yes?
No?

And if NOT why not?

I have no problem with Adam and Eve being history or being a powerful picture of Christ and the church OR of it being a firm foundation for the institution of marriage.

This would bring strong doubt to belief in miracles and all the teachings of Christ, who refers to God in the beginning of creation bringing Adam and Eve together in marriage as the foundation for all marriages to follow.

I don't think so.

You spoke of the fourth commandment. I assume you mean the commandment about the Sabbath.

The FIRST commandment is about having no other gods beside Yahweh and that is followed by the forbidding of IDOLS to replace God. It could be that some Christians who think the Bible is inspired by God ONLY when it agrees with modern science.

That can be a form of idolatry. You lift up ever shifting "modern" science as something you have to read into all of the Bible. It could be that your understanding of what is revealed carries some assumptions that prove unnecessary someday.

Old Assumption - IE. The earth does not MOVE because it is on pillars and God would never allow it to move out of its place.


Deatruction and Recovery in God's making in six days has not had that effect on me as concerns you. That God MADE everything in earth in heaven in six days. And God CREATED the heavens and the earth in the beginning.

Neither has it disturbed my understanding of Adam and Eve.

That there may be more time to the cosmos then Bishop Ussher calculated:

Does this reduce the effectiveness of His redemption ? YES
Does this make Him less the Lord and Savior ? YES
Does it make Him untrustworthy in any way ? YES
Does it detract from God being the Creator ? YES
Does it undermine Christ being God incarnate ? YES
Does it make redemption or salvation unnecessary ? YES

If "millions of years" are involved in anything concerning the PAST of the whole universe, exactly HOW does this do damage to

a.) God being the Creator ?
God would be a liar if He did not do it in only six days like He said He did.

b.) Man being made in the image and likeness of God ?
Billions of years makes evolution more credible and so man might have evolved from an ape.

c.) Man needing Christ as Lord and Savior ?
Man would have no moral standard for sin and no need for a Savior.

d.) Jesus dying a redemptive death and rising in a victorious resurrection?
This would no longer make any sense because it would be based on the fall of man in the Genesis account which would no longer be believed.



A belief in millions of years of evolution

I didn't say a billions years of evolution. I just said more time from the creation of the heavens and the earth.

Genesis 1:26,27 is not denied because the universe may be older than some pre-scientific people imagined. And not everyone who notices that CREATE and MADE carry to a large degree each their own connotations has to be a Darwinist.

not only contradicts the clear teaching of Genesis and the rest of Scripture but also challenges the character of God. God told us in Genesis that He created the whole universe and everything in it in six days, nothing about millions of years of death and evolution.

God told us that in six days He MADE (working with already existing material) the things in the heavens and in the earth (Exodus. 20:11).

Not everyone who notices this distinction is a Darwinist.

But if death existed throughout man's evolution and was a natural part of that evolution, then how can it be a consequence of sin, since it existed before sin occurred? Why would Jesus want to defeat it?

I'll look at this question latter. But Christ's victory is not undermined in any way by a preadamic world judged by God in which there could be beings that were deprived of their physical life.

The economy of that time could have been SO different from what we are familiar with that God deems it better that we know less of it. Only a glimmer that relates to His dealing with the ancient foe, is all we need.

A world run by Satan may be so alien to us that all we need to know by revel...

A world run by Satan may be so alien to us that all we need to know by revelation is that it was made waste and without form. And then God MADE heaven and earth, working with what was damaged, in six days. During that time He CREATED man and CREATED some new life in the sea.

Where in scripture does it say that the death of animals occurred before Adam sinned?

I already told you I have no verse but can show that the DEAD (other than those in Death and Hades) out of the sea will stand in judgement too at the great white throne.

Biologically I have nothing to add. But something DIED and is associated with the sea. The best explanation is the DEMONS who wander about in "waterless places" seeking to illegally inhabit bodies instead of their own which they lost.

They lost them probably in the time God rendered Satan's world without form and void.

Originally posted by KellyJay
Don't combine two pieces of scripture together to create a point that isn't
there in context. We don't gather together to get what we want. We can
ask the Lord for things in His name, but our motivation should be to
glorify God not acquire things for our own desires. We can gather and He
promised to be there if two or more are there, what greater desire could
we have than that?

There is no point in making a big deal of it, but you seem to be missing some scripture. Have you read the New testament through from start to finish yourself?

Originally posted by RJHinds
There is no point in making a big deal of it, but you seem to be missing some scripture. Have you read the New testament through from start to finish yourself?

I'm not missing anything, and yes I've read it from cover to cover more
than once and I read daily.

Originally posted by sonship

My credibility must not be very good with you anyway, if making a human mistake once in awhile hurts my credibility with you.

Actually, acknowledging a human mistake can improve one's credibility.
In the future I may explore some more documentation as you referred to.

[quote]
You may be able to believe in billions and millio ...[text shortened]... l we need.

A world run by Satan may be so alien to us that all we need to know by revel...

The fact that the universe is so big is just evidence that God stretched out the heavens as is recorded in the Holy Bible and testifies to tjhe power and glory of God the creator.

Unlike you and evolutionists, I try to avoid making assumptions and accept what is clearly written in scripture by keeping speculation to a minimum. What the ancients believed in the dark ages does not bother me, for today we can all read the Holy Bible for ourself to see what is true.

HalleluYah !!! Praise the LORD! Holy! Holy! Holy!

Originally posted by sonship
A world run by Satan may be so alien to us that all we need to know by revelation is that it was made waste and without form. And then God MADE heaven and earth, working with what was damaged, in six days. During that time He CREATED man and CREATED some new life in the sea.

[quote]
Where in scripture does it say that the death of animals occurred befo ...[text shortened]... ost.

They lost them probably in the time God rendered Satan's world without form and void.

The Text does not say the creation of the heavens and the earth was completed and the earth became damaged. The clear reading of scripture indicates that the heavens and earth were not finished at the end of the first day and that accounted for its condition at that time.

Many people have died in the sea and others, like Osama Bin Laden, have died on land and buried at sea.

YouTube

Originally posted by KellyJay
I'm not missing anything, and yes I've read it from cover to cover more
than once and I read daily.

Good for you. I have read it too. But it appears that your understanding of it is somewhat different from mine when it comes to God answering prayer. Haven't you witnessed the answer to prayer by God?

Originally posted by RJHinds
Good for you. I have read it too. But it appears that your understanding of it is somewhat different from mine when it comes to God answering prayer. Haven't you witnessed the answer to prayer by God?

I'm not sure where you are going with this, I'm talking about rightly
dividing the Word of God you do not get to throw two different pieces
of scripture together that have a meaning in the context they are in
to produce another meaning all together different. Having prayer answered
by God is a great thing, good for you, and I'm very happy that has happen,
and I wish that it continues.

I'm not sure why you are debating this unless you think you can throw
together to different pieces of scripture take them out of context to
get another meaning and pow we have a new promise we can live by?
I don't think you would mean to do that, and I hope I'm not wrong
about that here!

Originally posted by KellyJay
I'm not sure where you are going with this, I'm talking about rightly
dividing the Word of God you do not get to throw two different pieces
of scripture together that have a meaning in the context they are in
to produce another meaning all together different. Having prayer answered
by God is a great thing, good for you, and I'm very happy that has happe ...[text shortened]... an live by?
I don't think you would mean to do that, and I hope I'm not wrong
about that here!

I am not exactly sure what you are referring to by throwing two pieces of scripture together to get a different meaning. I look at all scripture concerning a subject and attempt to get the full and correct meaning, not a different meaning.

Originally posted by RJHinds

The fact that the universe is so big is just evidence that God stretched out the heavens as is recorded in the Holy Bible and testifies to tjhe power and glory of God the creator.

And if the universe stretches timewise back further than it is hard to imagine, the very same is true.

In fact we have to take on faith in God's word the things which He said He did. With certainty of knowledge we cannot find them out. That is what the Bible says -

"He has made everything beautiful in its own time; also He has put eternity in their heart, yet so that man does not find out what God has done from the beginning to the end." (Ecclesiastes 3:11)

Without God revealing some (I said SOME ) things to man, man cannot fully find out these things. And God has revealed some things and kept concealed from of (at least for now) some things.

Everything that God has done from "the beginning" cannot be found out by man with certainty.

So when the word of God says "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. " (Genesis 1:1) we have to know this is not exhaustive that we can find out all things God did.

Of the things He has told us, we may know some things.

"And the earth became waste and emptiness, and darkness was on the surface of the deep." (Gene. 1:2 RcV)

Unlike you and evolutionists, I try to avoid making assumptions and accept what is clearly written in scripture by keeping speculation to a minimum.

It is evident that you make many assumptions and present them as arguments to support biological concepts about animals before and after the flood. Don't tell me that you make no assumptions.

You speculate about salt in the ocean, dust on the moon, stalactites in a cave, the Grand Canyon, drawings on a wall, legends about dragons, and many things. When it is time to defend your 6,000 year old universe you speculate plenty.

What the ancients believed in the dark ages does not bother me, for today we can all read the Holy Bible for ourself to see what is true.

You have not given a strong answer to why an older than suspected universe does harm to the major themes of either the doctrine of God as Creator or Christ as Lord, Savior, and Redeemer.

You have tried to force everyone who does not believe in a recent creation of 6,000 years to be a Darwinist. And you do speculate. and assume to do apologetic of YEC. You should admit that you do.

What I brought up about the tar / pitch to prepare the ark prior to the flood, you answered with speculation. You answered with assumption that Noah used tree resin perhaps or manufactured his own pitch.

Assumption .... Speculation.

It is not speculation though that the Bible tells us that God did not create the heavens and the earth waste (Isaiah 45:18) -

"He did not create it waste, ..."

The entire verse in context -

"For thus says Jehovah, Who created the heavens -

He is the God Who formed the earth and made it; He established it;

He did not create it waste, But He formed it to be inhabited:

I am Jehovah and there is no one else' "

God did not create the heavens and the earth waste. He formed it to be inhabited.

So "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. And the earth was waste ..." means that God did not create it that way. So the six days reveal His work of restoration and further creation. I do not have to be a Darwinist and believe this.