The Enlightenment Culture and Creative Reason

Originally posted by lucifershammer
[b]Now, what is the Pope's definition of freedom?

I don't recall having read a "definition" of freedom by either Pope Benedict XVI or Pope John Paul II the Great; but I think it would go along the lines of:

the ability to realise the fulness of our potential as beings created in the image and likeness of God and endowed with dignity[/b]

In case of dispute, who'd be the arbiter of such freedom?

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
In case of dispute, who'd be the arbiter of such freedom?

Since our rights proceed from our dignity as beings created in the image and likeness of God, I guess the ultimate "arbiter" would be God Himself.

Originally posted by lucifershammer
Since our rights proceed from our dignity as beings created in the image and likeness of God, I guess the ultimate "arbiter" would be God Himself.

Lacking a response from God...?

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
It's ok, LH brought me up to speed.

Perhaps the European Constitution is biased against the Catholic Church? It would be interesting to see another confrontation between Church & State--on the issue of female ordainment?--what sort of battles would be fought, on what battlegrounds and with what weapons.

I'm sure the events in the Netherlands concerning this innocuous and insignificant protestant SGP party are just an introduction to the ideological battle between the Real Existing Liberal (REL) ideology and the Roman Catholic Church. These future entanglements will show that the REL is indeed an ideology that grants freedom to those who join their ranks and will limit the freedoms and civil liberties of those who oppose their ideology.

The RC stance on homosexuality and the stance on ordination of women (RCC: The Church does not have the authority to ordain women) will be in the focus of attention in this long battle.

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
Lacking a response from God...?

I actually hope these two guys arent speaking for the RCC,
I would have thought the church had learned to stay out of politics,,
If any church needed to be *surpressed it would be that one ,,it's shown throughout history that it has no concept of freedom, pluralism, tolerance or any other concept that a State needs to have. Except violence,, the church knows full well how to use force.

edit *to keep from being misconstrued I mean surpressed in it's attempt to gain political power.

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
Lacking a response from God...?

As a Catholic, I believe that God has endowed His Church with the charism of infallibility (the inability to teach false moral and dogmatic doctrines).

So, in disputes over moral freedom, I believe the Church would be the final arbiter on earth.

In disputes over legal freedom, of course, whatever judicial authority exists in the region would be the arbiter.

Originally posted by ivanhoe
I'm sure the events in the Netherlands concerning this innocuous and insignificant protestant SGP party are just an introduction to the ideological battle between the Real Existing Liberal (REL) ideology and the Roman Catholic Church. These future entanglements will show that the REL is indeed an ideology that grants freedom to those who join their ranks an ...[text shortened]... s not have the authority to ordain women) will be in the focus of attention in this long battle.

"The RC stance on homosexuality and the stance on ordination of women (RCC: The Church does not have the authority to ordain women) will be in the focus of attention in this long battle"

so what? The church could make a goat da pope .
Its when the doctrines of the church begin to be enforced by the government that it comes into conflict with other religions.
Its the church dont want women or gays as priests , thats an internal church thing.
Again if the the church is against abortion, gay rights, woman's lib or any other thing on religion thats ok too,,as long as it's kept internal to the church.
Once it becomes a political thing its automatically an attempet to legislate the churches doctrine into Law and be enforced on other religions and non- religious.

Originally posted by frogstomp
"The RC stance on homosexuality and the stance on ordination of women (RCC: The Church does not have the authority to ordain women) will be in the focus of attention in this long battle"

so what? The church could make a goat da pope .
Its when the doctrines of the church begin to be enforced by the government that it comes int ...[text shortened]... he churches doctrine into Law and be enforced on other religions and non- religious.

I'm talking about imposing the liberal values and ideology on the Church by the State. (see Benedict's speech to which I'm referring in this threads' opening post and the posts I made in the "Erosion of civil liberties" thread in the Debates Forum.

Observing the developments an important question arises whether there ought to be a separation not only between Church (religious ideology) and State but also between Secular Ideology (liberalism for instance) and State.

Originally posted by ivanhoe
I'm talking about imposing the liberal values and ideology on the Church by the State. (see Benedict's speech to which I'm refering in this threads' opening post and the posts I made in the "Erosion of civil liberties" thread in the Debates Forum.

Observing the developments an important question arises whether there ought to be a separation not onl ...[text shortened]... gious ideology) and State but also between Secular Ideology (liberalism for instance) and State.

What you avocate is forcing your religion on society.
Don't pretend otherwise.
The Pope can tell catholics what their morality is. but cannot tell them to force it on the rest of the populace.

A rose by any other name is still a bundle of sticks.

Originally posted by frogstomp
What you avocate is forcing your religion on society.
Don't pretend otherwise.
The Pope can tell catholics what their morality is. but cannot tell them to force it on the rest of the populace.

A rose by any other name is still a bundle of sticks.

Have you been following what I presented and wrote in this thread and in the other thread I mentioned in my previous post ?

Originally posted by frogstomp
"The RC stance on homosexuality and the stance on ordination of women (RCC: The Church does not have the authority to ordain women) will be in the focus of attention in this long battle"

so what? The church could make a goat da pope .
Its when the doctrines of the church begin to be enforced by the government that it comes int ...[text shortened]... he churches doctrine into Law and be enforced on other religions and non- religious.

Again if the the church is against abortion, gay rights, woman's lib or any other thing on religion thats ok too,,as long as it's kept internal to the church.

Abortion, as I've mentioned to vistesd, is a different kettle of fish altogether as the Church treats it as equivalent to murder and cannot but press legislatures to implement it as law. To do otherwise would be to condone genocide.

Personally, I have no problems with "gay rights" with the exception of adoption. As with abortion, this "right" intrudes into the right of another human being and is a different kettle of fish altogether.

In any case, that's not what this thread is about. If you want to debate it, feel free to start another one.

Originally posted by lucifershammer
[b]Again if the the church is against abortion, gay rights, woman's lib or any other thing on religion thats ok too,,as long as it's kept internal to the church.

Abortion, as I've mentioned to vistesd, is a different kettle of fish altogether as the Church treats it as equivalent to murder and cannot but press legisl ...[text shortened]... that's not what this thread is about. If you want to debate it, feel free to start another one.[/b]

What you are not getting is how your church views abotion is internal to your church.
How the state views abortion is a matter for the state to decide. Genocide has a specific meaning and is covered by international law.
Maybe you think the Pope is the Dictator of the world.That again is your problem.
Creative Reason is a laff as a vehicle for Dictation by Pontification even if done by da pope.

Originally posted by ivanhoe
Have you been following what I presented and wrote in this thread and in the other thread I mentioned in my previous post ?

I dont see anywhere you have backed away from legislating Catholic morality into Civil Law.
If you have just say so.

Originally posted by frogstomp
I dont see anywhere you have backed away from legislating Catholic morality into Civil Law.
If you have just say so.

???????

Originally posted by frogstomp
What you are not getting is how your church views abotion is internal to your church.
How the state views abortion is a matter for the state to decide. Genocide has a specific meaning and is covered by international law.
Maybe you think the Pope is the Dictator of the world.That again is your problem.
Creati ...[text shortened]... on is a laff as a vehicle for Dictation by Pontification even if done by da pope.

"How the state views abortion is a matter for the state to decide."

I hope the State comes to the conclusion that unborn citizins also deserve the States' protection and the upholding of the unborns' basic human right, the Right to Life.