The Good Father

@philokalia said
Of course, it can be argued that I am repeating myself... But then, what's the point of any of this? Maybe it is the case that the forum is ripe for closing.

As I see it, you have three options:

[1] Stop simply repeating bits of your dogma that do not address the issue of morality and instead engage with the perspectives and questions that are being put to you.

[2] If you don't want to discuss the moral purpose and justification of eternal torture, then don't. Go find some Protestants and make them "blush" about "Sola Scriptura" or tell them you want to go "cam-2-cam".

[3] If you believe "the forum is ripe for closing", then contact the website's administrators and make your case: that the Spirituality Forum should be closed down; tell them what happened to you on THIS thread is the reason why you are proposing its closure.

@suzianne said
Despite what some here like to throw around as a debating point, those who believe in the trinity are monotheists as well.

Kevin-Eleven understands your buddy sonship far better than you do.

@philokalia said
Sure, it's technically an appeal to authority; nobody can hide that...

Actually I said “popularity” not “authority”. But Technically, logically, actually…yes all you are doing is appealing to the authority of these crumbling, dead alters, these man-made graves of Christianity.

You don’t know your bible because you’ve hardly read it.

@fmf said
This is a mischaracterization of our discussions and this thread demonstrates this. I am not interested in your personal remarks which you use to dodge the content of my posts. I don't want to go "cam-2-cam" with you. I don't want to talk to you on the phone. I don't want you to visit me in Indonesia. I don't want to get drunk with you or find out whether or not you are a fun guy ...[text shortened]... en your needy pleading. If you don't want to discuss the morality of eternal torture here, so be it.

Sure, I get it. ^^

@fmf said
As I see it, you have three options:

[1] Stop simply repeating bits of your dogma that do not address the issue of morality and instead engage with the perspectives and questions that are being put to you.

[2] If you don't want to discuss the moral purpose and justification of eternal torture, then don't. Go find some Protestants and make them "blush" about "Sola Scriptura" ...[text shortened]... down; tell them what happened to you on THIS thread is the reason why you are proposing its closure.

[1] Yes

[2] Oh, I do want to discuss it. But, this also hinges on us discussing it from an orthodox theological perspective, as I am not defending a strawman.

We have to understand that people send themselves to hell via their own actions.

You fail to get the terminology right, and that is your only move: repeating over and over again that it is torture.

[3] 😴

@divegeester said
Actually I said “popularity” not “authority”. But Technically, logically, actually…yes all you are doing is appealing to the authority of these crumbling, dead alters, these man-made graves of Christianity.

You don’t know your bible because you’ve hardly read it.

OK, so, in terms of hell, what should we believe based on the Bible?

Educate me.

@philokalia said
Oh, I do want to discuss it. But, this also hinges on us discussing it from an orthodox theological perspective, as I am not defending a strawman.

You seem unable to discuss the moral coherence of what you believe. Declaring that yours is an "orthodox theological perspective" seems to be the gimmick you use to avoid discussing the moral coherence of what you believe

@fmf said
You seem unable to discuss the moral coherence of what you believe. Declaring that yours is an "orthodox theological perspective" seems to be the gimmick you use to avoid discussing the moral coherence of what you believe

OK, let's get back to it:

what is morally incoherent about saying that people who choose to alienate themselves from God and do not repent face eternity separated from God - an eternity in hell?

@philokalia said
I have actually even challenged him to do a debate over audio/video since it is so difficult getting him to do anything besides retreat into a turtle-shell by repeating the exact same assertions over & over & over again, in even smaller bite sized portions, refusign to engage further, but it has been impossible.

This thread is a decent enough example of it.

But if FMF is ever up for it, we can do a debate.

“Turtle neck” you think FMF, of all the things you could accuse him of being, is “turtle-necking!? He had to be one of the most direct, forthright, address the point, posters here.

In another thread recently I asked you the same question maybe a dozen times and you completely blanked it every time.

You are intellectually lazy.

@philokalia said

But if FMF is ever up for it, we can do a debate.

He is debating you, right here, right now.

@philokalia said
We have to understand that people send themselves to hell via their own actions.

I am not going to send myself to "hell". I am going to die. So, stop being silly. The torture regime you believe in is either created by your God figure or it does not exist.

If your God figure is not going to send me to "hell" to torture me, and I am not going to send myself there, then no torture is going to happen.

But if I am to be tortured, then it can only be the consequence [and purpose] of your God figure's mechanism of supernatural torture existence.

So, what is the moral purpose of me being tortured?

@philokalia said
OK, so, in terms of hell, what should we believe based on the Bible?

Educate me.

I’m not interested in educating you.

What I’m interested in, especially now, is unpicking your loosely woven, off the peg, regurgitations.

@philokalia said
what is morally incoherent about saying that people who choose to alienate themselves from God and do not repent face eternity separated from God - an eternity in hell?

If they do not find the claims made by people like you regarding "God" to be credible, then they cannot be "choosing to alienate themselves" from an entity they feel they have no reason to believe exists.

So there is no "moral" issue surrounding their lack of belief and their 'failure to share the religious beliefs you hold... beliefs, if you forgive me for saying so, that seem awfully weighed down with narcissism and misanthropy.

@philokalia said
You fail to get the terminology right, and that is your only move: repeating over and over again that it is torture.

"Tortured in burning flames for eternity" - that exact string of six words, which I carefully use when I refer to your ideology - is taken verbatim from one of your posts about 18 months ago. It is your terminology.

@fmf said
I am not going to send myself to "hell". I am going to die. So, stop being silly. The torture regime you believe in is either created by your God figure or it does not exist.

If your God figure is not going to send me to "hell" to torture me, and I am not going to send myself there, then no torture is going to happen.

But if I am to be tortured, then it can only be the co ...[text shortened]... mechanism of supernatural torture existence.

So, what is the moral purpose of me being tortured?

I am not going to send myself to "hell". I am going to die. So, stop being silly. The torture regime you believe in is either created by your God figure or it does not exist.

If your God figure is not going to send me to "hell" to torture me, and I am not going to send myself there, then no torture is going to happen.

OK, but we are talking about the moral coherence of the argument, not whether it is factually true.

You are not being to the point. You are trying to have a separate discussion.

But, fortnately, 10% of your post was topical.

So, what is the moral purpose of me being tortured?

First, it is not torture; it is the result of your own actions, and thus not torture.

Second, by living in a state of unrepentance for your sins, and rejecting your creator, you have chosen to not accept eternal life with God. Because all of our sins darken our minds and incline us towards wrong withotu repentance, separating us further from God, we cannot actually go to Heaven and to be saved.

But the soul is immortal, and so, on Judgment Day, those who have repented and loved God will be taken to heaven, and those who haven't will have exiled themselves.

What is wrong with the consequence of
- People who do not want to be with God not being with God
- People who do not repent of their sinful nature living in this fallen state, with the consequences thereof?