23 Jun 21
@fmf saidOK, I guess when I am looking for a debate, I am looking for something more like what Kevin & Dive do.
Nope. I am not. I am dead on-topic. You are ignoring much of what I say. What would be the moral purpose and justification for torturing people for eternity for not sharing your religious beliefs? What would be the moral purpose of giving proponents of your religion a doctrine like this that most human beings do not find credible? What would be the moral purpose of keeping it sec ...[text shortened]... ng non-believers? You believing it does not make it real. Coherence and credibility are intertwined.
We just aren't interfacing properly.
23 Jun 21
@kevin-eleven said(1) Christ brought new revelations about the nature of hell, so it would be different from the Hebrew concept of hell.
Radical how?
- Sheol is not the same as the Christian invention of hell.
- Jesus never said anything about the trinity. Like any other Jew, he was a monotheist.
- Original sin was invented by Augustine of Hippo.
(2) John 1 is the standard for how we understand the trinity, more or less:
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%201&version=NIV
Now, for places where Christ alludes to Himself as God, and you see it in places like John 16:13:
13 When tthe Spirit of truth comes, uhe will vguide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but wwhatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. 14 He will xglorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. 15 yAll that the Father has is mine; ztherefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you.
https://biblia.com/bible/esv/john/16/13-15
We can, of course, dig up other passages throughout the NT around which the concept of the Trinity is built.
This is also a fun topic because it is how we get Protestants to blush about Sola Scriptura - mentioning that it is never explicitly stated in the Bible, and that we understand the Trinity best through Church tradition. Now, we are sort of doing the reverse, where we are talking with heretics (or non-Christians) about the nature of the Trinity.
- Original sin or ancestral sin is the name for the idea that all man is inclined towards sin and falls short of the glory of God after the Fall. It's not a hard doctrine to backup.
I would say that the idea is much older than St. Augustine.
23 Jun 21
@divegeester saidNah man, you have to understand that
I do believe in original sin, to a point. But it depends on the entire doctrine.
There is no eternal suffering
The “trinity” is not mentioned in the bible.
Your willingness to fight your position from appeals to historical popularity, rather than from a detailed exegesis of the texts with a juxtaposed backdrop of basic morality, informs me that you don’t really kn ...[text shortened]... and you are too intellectually lazy to present much more than the regurgitated pulp you’ve been fed.
- Orthodox
- Catholic
- Protestant
And even people more radical than the conventional Protestants have pretty much all acknowledged the concepts of hell, the Trinity, original sin, etc., as vital to our basic understanding of Christianity. These are people who have gone through the Bible with fine-toothed combs and have drawn heavily off of the original Christianity as much s they can, and they have come to these conclusions time & time again
Sure, it's technically an appeal to authority; nobody can hide that...
But yuo got to make a very good case if you are proposing radical reinterpretations of Christianity that everyone from St. Augustine to St. John of Damascus to Martin Luther to Zwingli to Spurgeon would raise their eyebrows at.
23 Jun 21
@philokalia saidI am "interfacing properly". The topic concerns morality. There is no moral content in any of your regurgitations of dogma. You are ignoring almost everything that is being put to you.
We just aren't interfacing properly.
23 Jun 21
@philokalia saidI am looking for a debate
OK, I guess when I am looking for a debate, I am looking for something more like what Kevin & Dive do.
Your prattle about Kevin Eleven and divegeester is yet another dodge.
The questions in the post you were pretending to reply to were:
What would be the moral purpose and justification for torturing people for eternity for not sharing your religious beliefs?
What would be the moral purpose of giving proponents of your religion a doctrine like this that most human beings do not find credible?
What would be the moral purpose of keeping it secret [i.e. there is no evidence that any of this is real] from still living non-believers?
Page 19 and you're still refusing to debate.
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23 Jun 21
@philokalia saidWhat evidence is there that John was not a complete nutcake who enjoyed the sound of his own voice, as in the case of Paul?
(1) Christ brought new revelations about the nature of hell, so it would be different from the Hebrew concept of hell.
(2) John 1 is the standard for how we understand the trinity, more or less:
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%201&version=NIV
Now, for places where Christ alludes to Himself as God, and you see it in places like John 16:13:
[qu ...[text shortened]... It's not a hard doctrine to backup.
I would say that the idea is much older than St. Augustine.
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@fmf saidGood grief, FMF, do learn how to interface properly!
I am "interfacing properly". The topic concerns morality. There is no moral content in any of your regurgitations of dogma. You are ignoring almost everything that is being put to you.
Philokalia is clearly a troll who for some reason is trying to undermine Orthodox Christianity from his unlikely perch in South Korea (if he is even to be believed about that), which everyone knows is an authoritarian country full of arrogant, egocentric pyramid-climbers, almost none of whom know Slavonic.
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23 Jun 21
@philokalia saidI would say that you are just using the study of all this theological nonsense as a distraction from your interest in cute K-pop guys and other people's genitals.
I would say that the idea is much older than St. Augustine.
23 Jun 21
@philokalia saidYou run away from most things divegeester puts to you. As you do with me. And, as for Kevin Eleven, well, you also singled out chaney3, Eladar, dj2becker and Romans1009 as the kinds of posters you think are 'the best' here. What's more, you thought the feebleminded and inarticulate KellyJay was one of the most intelligent and capable writers on this forum. Good luck talking to Kevin Eleven about "cute K-pop guys and other people's genitals".
I am looking for something more like what Kevin & Dive do.
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23 Jun 21
@fmf said@Philokalia
You run away from most things divegeester puts to you. As you do with me. And, as for Kevin Eleven, well, you also singled out chaney3, Eladar, dj2becker and Romans1009 as the kinds of posters you think are 'the best' here. What's more, you thought the feebleminded and inarticulate KellyJay was one of the most intelligent and capable writers on this forum. Good luck talking to Kevin Eleven about "cute K-pop guys and other people's genitals".
To follow on from what FMF said, I don't mind being thought of as just a mediocre clown at best.
If you really do want a debate (I doubt it), I think FMF is the most logically stringent of the regular posters here.
24 Jun 21
@kevin-eleven saidWell, if you reject the idea that Saints John & Paul are legitimate sources, then what's the point of having any kind of theological discussion?
What evidence is there that John was not a complete nutcake who enjoyed the sound of his own voice, as in the case of Paul?
The bottom completely falls out of the debate, either because you are not a Christian, and we must abandon the debate to discuss far more fundamental things, or because you are a Christian who simply makes up whatever you want to believe as you go along.
We can only have a debate about the morality of the Christian ideas of hell, or the Christian theology of the Trinity, etc.,if you accept Christian theology.
at this point, you do not have a dispute about the Trinity, you have a dispute about something more basic.
24 Jun 21
@kevin-eleven saidOK, I do not understand why you are targeting me with this.
Good grief, FMF, do learn how to interface properly!
Philokalia is clearly a troll who for some reason is trying to undermine Orthodox Christianity from his unlikely perch in South Korea (if he is even to be believed about that), which everyone knows is an authoritarian country full of arrogant, egocentric pyramid-climbers, almost none of whom know Slavonic.
I hope you feel better, though.
24 Jun 21
@kevin-eleven saidI have actually even challenged him to do a debate over audio/video since it is so difficult getting him to do anything besides retreat into a turtle-shell by repeating the exact same assertions over & over & over again, in even smaller bite sized portions, refusign to engage further, but it has been impossible.
@Philokalia
To follow on from what FMF said, I don't mind being thought of as just a mediocre clown at best.
If you really do want a debate (I doubt it), I think FMF is the most logically stringent of the regular posters here.
This thread is a decent enough example of it.
But if FMF is ever up for it, we can do a debate.
24 Jun 21
@philokalia saidThis is a mischaracterization of our discussions and this thread demonstrates this. I am not interested in your personal remarks which you use to dodge the content of my posts. I don't want to go "cam-2-cam" with you. I don't want to talk to you on the phone. I don't want you to visit me in Indonesia. I don't want to get drunk with you or find out whether or not you are a fun guy. I haven't forgotten your needy pleading. If you don't want to discuss the morality of eternal torture here, so be it.
I have actually even challenged him to do a debate over audio/video since it is so difficult getting him to do anything besides retreat into a turtle-shell by repeating the exact same assertions over & over & over again, in even smaller bite sized portions, refusign to engage further, but it has been impossible.
This thread is a decent enough example of it.
But if FMF is ever up for it, we can do a debate.