The Good Father

@fmf said
You can conduct yourself in as rational a way as you want in terms of what religious literature you read and what people of faith you talk to, but the onset of the "gut feeling" that constitutes faith is something you will realize has taken seat in your mind; you can't just decide to have faith.

And, no matter how rational you think you are, you can't just decide to not have that "gut feeling" and simply switch that faith off.

So we can dismiss all of free will because FMF insists that our faith or lack of faith comes from a gut feeling..?

What prevents our gut feelings from being influenced by our own mind?

@divegeester said
Im not clear on where you stand; people do or don’t send themselves to heaven?

Yes, our actions and struggles are what send us to heaven.

"Struggle with all your power to gain paradise. And do not listen to those who say that everyoen will be saved. Thisis a trap of Satan so that we won't struggle.' St. Paisios of Mt. Athens

@divegeester said
I am a Christian because a portion of faith was given to me in order for me to believe. Through that faith I may look at the words in the Bible and subjectively find them to be true. That personal experience does not make the words objectively true for someone else. I’m a little surprised that this basic concept seems to have eluded you.

Wait, so you look at the Bible and find its contents to be subjectively true?

As in, they may be objectively false and not real at all, but you just personally find them to be true?

@divegeester said
I am taking up “that position” because the absence of any evidence whatsoever that there is a secret place purposefully designed for the eternal torture of non Christians, speaks directly to the morality of its concept. Again I am surprised that I have to explain this to you.

That is actually not even a description of what we believe hell to be.

@philokalia said
What prevents our gut feelings from being influenced by our own mind?

The only way of monitoring it is with the mind.

@philokalia said
So we can dismiss all of free will because FMF insists that our faith or lack of faith comes from a gut feeling..?

The reality of how faith works and the role free will plays together make your assertion - that torturing for eternity is morally coherent - feeble and contrived.

@philokalia said
There's not really any argument for as to why it is the case, or any sort of explanation.

It is just some personal story and insistence that that's how it works.

You have given no reason to believe or concur with your theory about "how it works".

Your assertion about free will, as it pertains to belief in the supernatural, doesn't ring psychologically true and certainly doesn't show how neverending brutal torture might be morally justified.

If your underlying belief is that IT IS MORALLY JUSTIFIED BECAUSE IT IS MORALLY JUSTIFIED, which I suspect it is, because you are simply referring to a tenet of your personal faith, then just say so.

@philokalia said
St. Paisios of Mt. Athens

Another "expert"?

@fmf said
The only way of monitoring it is with the mind.

So our mind is not at all disconnected from our gut feeling. Scientifically, of course, such feelings would be entirely in the mind, right.

How would it be the case that the gut feeling is not subject to our learning and our thinking processes? Or is it?

@fmf said
The reality of how faith works and the role free will plays together make your assertion - that torturing for eternity is morally coherent - feeble and contrived.

You would have to assert that hell constitutes torture imposed from without.

@fmf said
You have given no reason to believe or concur with your theory about "how it works".

Your assertion about free will, as it pertains to belief in the supernatural, doesn't ring psychologically true and certainly doesn't show how neverending brutal torture might be morally justified.

If your underlying belief is that IT IS MORALLY JUSTIFIED BECAUSE IT IS MORALLY JUSTIFIED, ...[text shortened]... suspect it is, because you are simply referring to a tenet of your personal faith, then just say so.

Again, with the 'torture,' which is completely disputed, and you have not bothered to reason out for us.

Would you elaborate on hwo my ideas of free will do not "ring psychologically true?" I can't attack your assertion if... you don't present any reasons for your assertion.

@fmf said
Another "expert"?

FMF thinks he's scoring points when he questions the authority of Orthodox Saints on Christian theology and metaphysics 🙄

@philokalia said
FMF thinks he's scoring points when he questions the authority of Orthodox Saints on Christian theology and metaphysics 🙄

He's not just thinking it, he's actually doing it.

Nothing wrong with questioning a mountain of nonsense.

@kevin-eleven said
He's not just thinking it, he's actually doing it.

Nothing wrong with questioning a mountain of nonsense.

Obviously, referencing Orthodox Saints hold no persuasive power over making an atheist believe in Christ.

But when we are describing hell and Christian theology, they certainly have authority, do they not?

@philokalia said
So our mind is not at all disconnected from our gut feeling. Scientifically, of course, such feelings would be entirely in the mind, right.

How would it be the case that the gut feeling is not subject to our learning and our thinking processes? Or is it?

Let me respond to this with this question: explain how it is morally justified to torture people in burning flames for eternity if the "gut feeling", which is the very nature and basis of faith in the face of a lack of objective proof, does not take hold of their subjective beliefs in the supernatural?