The Good Father

@rajk999 said
Imbecile atheists keep trying to understand the bible without reading it. David's sin was disobedience. God had told David that the Jews would multiply so greatly in number that the enemies trying to destroy the Jews would had a hard time. The numbering meant a lack of trust in God. That was his sin.

So counting an army is a "sin" now? And it's also a sin deserving either famine, enemies trying to kill you or disease?

"Imbecile atheists"---Rajk

Meanwhile, you worship a god who commits mass murder just for counting an army.

@vivify said
So counting an army is a "sin" now? And it's also a sin deserving either famine, enemies trying to kill you or disease?

"Imbecile atheists"---Rajk

Meanwhile, you worship a god who commits mass murder just for counting an army.

A bible critic that cannot read and understand. Great.

@rajk999 said
A bible critic that cannot read and understand. Great.

Yawn.

How many times have I had to correct you on your bible, even though you're the Christian? Remember when you falsely claimed that slaves were Jewish criminals?

A Christian that cannot read and understand. Typical.

@fmf said
But I AM responsible for them ~ to my wife, to my children, to my family, to my neighbours, to my kampung, to my workplace, to my students, to my clients, to my city and country.

You are responsible for encouraging people to make the right choices and for aiding the poor and the needy, and, of course, for doing all of the other things that you should do.

But all people have free will, and they have a right to exercise it independently of you.

@philokalia said
But all people have free will, and they have a right to exercise it independently of you.

You see my perspective as being a threat or challenge to other people's "rights" in some way?

@philokalia said
You are responsible for encouraging people to make the right choices and for aiding the poor and the needy, and, of course, for doing all of the other things that you should do.

And how are you linking this to the OP?

@philokalia said
You are responsible for encouraging people to make the right choices and for aiding the poor and the needy, and, of course, for doing all of the other things that you should do.

Your belief that your God figure tortures non-believers in burning flames for eternity does not create any moral "choice" for me.

Just as the unsolicited text I received on my phone this morning, that tells me that I have won 1,000,000,000 Rupiah, does not give me a "choice" between collecting or not collecting the money.

@suzianne said
Again, such a God is not my God. If one wishes to attack THAT God, be my guest, but such distinction should be made. Without such a distinction, a diatribe against God I will take as an attack against MY God. This is the only God I know.

You are being dishonest here. You know very well what Christians such as sonship believe about eternal suffering and in fact tha5 doctrine is propagated through the majority of Christendom. It is blatantly obvious that the OP is addressing this doctrine through the analogy of the good father.

You pretending that you don’t realise this, or that you are taking some sort of manufactured offence against “YOUR” God is just embarrassingly dishonest.

@fmf said
Granting of, or respecting, free will - in this case - would be showing me that eternal torture actually exists [you have not a shred of evidence that it does], and will be meted out for failure to live my life in the required way, and then I can use my free will to either live as required or face the consequences.

You can't keep some ludicrous morally depraved system of tort ...[text shortened]... nd - to most human beings - not credible, and then start emitting some word salad about "free will".

So, it is not a fair position because you personally believe that God, heaven, and hell are not real, and belief in them are impossible..?

Sure, I believe it is the case that those who truly cannot believe are potentially saved; this is talked about in the parable of Luke 12.

It is not a bad thought. But I simply think it is the case that a lot of people do not find it impossible to believe - they find it impossible to put down their pride and to have faith in God, and pretend to have the whole board figured out, saying that there can be no God or that it is unknowable.

@philokalia said
So, it is not a fair position because you personally believe that God, heaven, and hell are not real, and belief in them are impossible..?

I think it is parochial and risibly groupthinkist for there to be, in your mind, and in sonship's mind, a notion of "perfect morality" attached to the eternal posthumous torture of people who do not find credible the things you just so happen to find credible.

Am I ~ in your mind ~ to be subjected to demented never-ending violence ~ justifiably so ~ because you found something not "impossible" and I did not share that belief? Humans clearly concocted this abject moral nonsense.

@philokalia said
Sure, I believe it is the case that those who truly cannot believe are potentially saved; this is talked about in the parable of Luke 12.

Nice. Good for you. As I have always said, believe what you want. If you NOW say that non-believers WON'T be tortured for eternity, that's lovely. Or if you are now claiming to be a bit hazy about this torture thing and want to fudge it a bit, that's lovely too. Either way, it has no impact on the reality in which I live and which will end when I die.

@philokalia said
It is not a bad thought. But I simply think it is the case that a lot of people do not find it impossible to believe - they find it impossible to put down their pride and to have faith in God, and pretend to have the whole board figured out, saying that there can be no God or that it is unknowable.

It is not a bad thought. But I simply think it is the case that a lot of people do not find it impossible to believe - they find it impossible to put down their pride and to have faith in God, and pretend to have the whole board figured out, saying that there can be no God or that it is unknowable.

"Pride"? "Pretend"?

Who's to say you aren't "pretending" to be a genuine believer in the teachings of the Orthodox Catholic Church? Not me. I'll leave that kind of 'debating point' to you.

Who's to say it's only pride that stops you from admitting that, when you read back to yourself some of the screeds of your newly internalized beliefs justifying torture for thoughtcrimes, you actually found it to be abject moral nonsense like I do, but your "pride" won't let you admit it and so you "pretend" that you do believe it? Again, not me. Once again, I'll leave that kind of 'debating point' to you.

If you want to talk to people who contend that there "there can be no God", you're addressing the wrong poster.

@fmf said
I think it is parochial and risibly groupthinkist for there to be, in your mind, and in sonship's mind, a notion of "perfect morality" attached to the eternal posthumous torture of people who do not find credible the things you just so happen to find credible.

Am I ~ in your mind ~ to be subjected to demented never-ending violence ~ justifiably so ~ because you found s ...[text shortened]... t "impossible" and I did not share that belief? Humans clearly concocted this abject moral nonsense.

I think it is parochial and risibly groupthinkist for there to be, in your mind, and in sonship's mind, a notion of "perfect morality" attached to the eternal posthumous torture of people who do not find credible the things you just so happen to find credible.

OK, so now that we have your insults and evasion of the original question out of the way...

Let's get to your question:

Am I ~ in your mind ~ to be subjected to demented never-ending violence ~ justifiably so ~ because you found something not "impossible" and I did not share that belief? Humans clearly concocted this abject moral nonsense.

No, you would not send yourself to hell because of that. I am not sure on what grounds God allows people to go to hell, and on what grounds people end up essentially saved, but it is generally thought that those who reject God consciously will be subject to going to hell.

But this is, ultimately, a mystery.

Do you reject God?

Will you circle back around to the initial question? Or do you think that the question was unfair -- that is also entirely possible.

@fmf said
Nice. Good for you. As I have always said, believe what you want. If you NOW say that non-believers WON'T be tortured for eternity, that's lovely. Or if you are now claiming to be a bit hazy about this torture thing and want to fudge it a bit, that's lovely too. Either way, it has no impact on the reality in which I live and which will end when I die.

When did I say that non-believers universally go to hell?

I am pretty sure that whenever we have talked about this we have ended up with m etyring to carefully thread the needle on this, FMF.

@fmf said
It is not a bad thought. But I simply think it is the case that a lot of people do not find it impossible to believe - they find it impossible to put down their pride and to have faith in God, and pretend to have the whole board figured out, saying that there can be no God or that it is unknowable.

"Pride"? "Pretend"?

Who's to say you aren't "pretending ...[text shortened]... to talk to people who contend that there "there can be no God", you're addressing the wrong poster.

"Pride"? "Pretend"?

Who's to say you aren't "pretending" to be a genuine believer in the teachings of the Orthodox Catholic Church? Not me. I'll leave that kind of 'debating point' to you.

You are right- I could also be a faker. Feel free to advance that position.

Who's to say it's only pride that stops you from admitting that, when you read back to yourself some of the screeds of your newly internalized beliefs justifying torture for thoughtcrimes, you actually found it to be abject moral nonsense like I do, but your "pride" won't let you admit it and so you "pretend" that you do believe it? Again, not me. Once again, I'll leave that kind of 'debating point' to you.

Torture for 'thoughtcrimes?' Not really - the rejection of God is a deeply held belief and absolutely is chosen; those who reject God put themselves away from God. It is up to them, their choice.

I do not know what my pride would have to do with this.

If you want to talk to people who contend that there "there can be no God", you're addressing the wrong poster.

Feel free to elucidate your position, or not.

I do not care, either way. Let us all use our time wisely.