The Gospel of Jesus vs The Gospel of Paul

Originally posted by @romans1009
I suspect you’re just (again) dodging a question you can’t answer so I’m not going to bother re-reading your prior posts.

I understand what you're saying.

Originally posted by @romans1009
If your modus operandi wasn’t claiming you’ve answered difficult questions when you haven’t, then I probably would bother with going back to your prior posts.

Frame the nature of the discourse between us as you see fit.

Originally posted by @thinkofone

Thoughts?

Notice the contradiction between these two statements.

Although we now know that the redemptive work of Christ’s death and resurrection is the crux of our message of salvation for today,

VS

Jesus did not preach his redemptive work on the cross for salvation during his ministry on earth.

There seems to be a contradiction between the "crux" of the message of Jesus and the content of His message as He preached.

Perhaps I am not fair to the writer? Perhaps I should put more emphasis on the word "now". In other words - in "hindsight" we see "now" Jesus was preaching His redemptive death and resurrection.

But Jesus iinstructed the disciples what they should emphasize between His resurrection and ascension. And it was definitely forgiveness of sins in His name.(Luke 24:44-48) .

He didn't leave it to their intuitive hindsight. Rather He gave them a directive.

Having said that, I hasten to add that they also were to teach all the nations "all things that I have commanded you" and not just some things. "All" is not restricted to His redemptive death on the cross.

"Go therefore and disciples all the nations, ... Teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you." (See Matthew 28:19,20)

The Apostle Paul, who authored 13 or so of the 27 NT books, was a pristine example of a disciple and apostle teaching us "ALL THAT I HAVE COMMANDED YOU." Ie everything Jesus taught.

Originally posted by @fmf
I understand what you're saying.

But are you acknowledging and/or noting it?

Originally posted by @fmf
Frame the nature of the discourse between us as you see fit.

If only I were the only one who framed it that way...

Originally posted by @romans1009
But are you acknowledging and/or noting it?

Of course, I am not dodging any questions and I don't care if you are not going to bother re-reading my prior posts. Not doing so hamstrings your ability to have a conversation about my ideas. It's up to you how you behave.

Originally posted by @fmf
Of course, I am not dodging any questions and I don't care if you are not going to bother re-reading my prior posts. Not doing so hamstrings your ability to have a conversation about my ideas. It's up to you how you behave.

What hamstrings our ability to have a conversation is your refusal to answer questions.

Originally posted by @romans1009
What hamstrings our ability to have a conversation is your refusal to answer questions.

Like I said, you can characterize the nature of the conversation between us and your behaviour as you think appropriate to whatever your purpose is here.

My definition and explanation of the words "spirit" and "personhood" - which you have been asking about - were provided earlier on the thread.

Originally posted by @sonship
Notice the contradiction between these two statements.

Although we now know that the redemptive work of Christ’s death and resurrection is the crux of our message of salvation for today,

VS

Jesus did not preach his redemptive work on the cross for salvation during his ministry on earth.

There seems to be a contradic ...[text shortened]... iple and apostle teaching us [b]"ALL THAT I HAVE COMMANDED YOU." Ie everything Jesus taught.[/b]

There seems to be a contradiction between the "crux" of the message of Jesus and the content of His message as He preached.

Jaywill, there is no contradiction.

They believe in the "redemptive work of Christ’s death and resurrection". However they correctly recognize that it is not a part of the gospel preached by Jesus during His ministry. Hopefully you can understand the distinction being made here.

As I observed in the OP:
<<Note that both parties embrace the gospel of Paul. While I don't agree with doing this, I applaud their intellectual honesty in acknowledging that message of the gospel preached by Jesus during His ministry is something very different from the message of the gospel preached by Paul. Something that seems to be lacking in those who deny this.>>

I really wish your reading comprehension were better. You'd better understand what other posters were writing. You'd better understand scripture.

Originally posted by @thinkofone
er understand scripture.[/b]

NotThinking continues:

Jaywill, there is no contradiction.

I disagree NotThinking,
(If you refuse to use my current tag sonship then I will refer to you as NotThinking. I think it is subtly contemptuous of you, or stubbornly dis-courteous at best. If you do the courtesy of referring to me correctly, I will return to using your current tag.)

They believe in the "redemptive work of Christ’s death and resurrection". However they correctly recognize that it is not a part of the gospel preached by Jesus during His ministry.

First of all NotThinking, as long as you remain nebulous about defining "Jesus during His ministry" you maintain an excuse to place whatever one points from Him to arbitrarily being outside of your ambiguous parameter.

Ie. What you do not want to recognize from Christ's speaking you conveniently shift to your category of not a part of "Jesus during His ministry." This is a completely arbitrary maneuver designed to preserve your misrepresentation of the Gospel.

That is why you will never definitely define with clarity which parts of the accounts of His life are "during His ministry."

What doesn't support your "another Jesus" you simply relegate to the ambiguous and arbitrary category of "not a part of Jesus ministry as He walked the earth."

Hopefully you can understand the distinction being made here.

Hopefully you realize that I was not born (or born again) yesterday.
While your posture wants to give an impression to people that you WISH the distinction is recognized, what you really want is to be able to use the disqualifying clause whenever you need to.

Which verses in Matthew and Luke do not represent "Jesus during His ministry"? Give me 20 verses in each Gospel as a sample.

If you ignore this question it is clear that you wish to retreat into your tactic of concocting your nebulous shifting disqualify goal-post whenever you want.

As I observed in the OP:
<<Note that both parties embrace the gospel of Paul. While I don't agree with doing this, I applaud their intellectual honesty in acknowledging that message of the gospel preached by Jesus during His ministry is something very different from the message of the gospel preached by Paul. Something that seems to be lacking in those who deny this.>>

I really wish your reading comprehension were better. You'd better understand what other posters were writing. You'd better understand scripture.

What your next post to me will do hopefully, which will do wonders for everybody's reading comprehension of the Gospels is -

Take Matthew and Luke and give us DEFINITE examples of verses which are outside of "Jesus ministry".

Modern scholarly laid out Bibles have harmonies, parallels, sidenotes, footnotes, and all kinds of textural tools. You should have some tools to IDENTIFY those passages (consecutive?) that lie OUTSIDE of your "Jesus ministry as He walked the earth".

Twenty from Matthew - where are they?
Twenty from Luke - where are they?

Originally posted by @sonship
If you refuse to use my current tag sonship then I will refer to you as NotThinking. I think it is subtly contemptuous of you, or stubbornly dis-courteous at best. If you do the courtesy of referring to me correctly, I will return to using your current tag.

Is this an indication of Jesus "flowing out" of you and "God's Holy Spirit" 'indwelling' in you?

Originally posted by @fmf
Is this an indication of Jesus "flowing out" of you and "God's Holy Spirit" 'indwelling' in you?

If you are fonder of the older posts of which you spoke glowingly, why don't you show us by linking to better posts of mine. You know, ones in which you had no problem with Jesus "flowing out" of sonship / jaywill.

Show us by comparison.
And if you have none to present then you must be involved in lying flattery as your only desperate alternative to effective rebuttals to my posts.

Make your NEXT comment include links to my past better posts more to your admiration (supposedly).

Originally posted by @sonship
NotThinking continues:

Jaywill, there is no contradiction.

I disagree NotThinking,
(If you refuse to use my current tag [b]sonship then I will refer to you as NotThinking. I think it is subtly contemptuous of you, or stubbornly dis-courteous at best. If you do the courtesy of referring to me correctly, I will return to usi ...[text shortened]... rth".

Twenty from Matthew - where are they?
Twenty from Luke - where are they?[/b]

There doesn't seem much hope for you to be able to understand what I was saying about the "contradiction" that you asserted.

However as to the "jaywill" question, I want to remind you what I wrote about it the last time you asked about it:

As I recall, in the first post you made after making the switch, you explained why it was done. Evidently some posters had not seen it and kept busting your chops even after you had tried to explain that you had, in fact, explained it earlier. I had seen the first post and I defended you. 

I call you jaywill because after years of interacting with you, that's how I thought of you and continue to think of you. It's as simple as that.

Pasted from <https://www.redhotpawn.com/forum/spirituality/beware--red-letter-antichrists.175919/page-4#post_3841972>

You seem to have gotten increasingly paranoid about this and many other things. You really need to calm your mind.

Originally posted by @thinkofone
There doesn't seem much hope for you to be able to understand what I was saying about the "contradiction" that you asserted.

However as to the "jaywill" question, I want to remind you what I wrote about it the last time you asked about it:

[quote]As I recall, in the first post you made after making the switch, you explained why it was done. Evident ...[text shortened]... otten increasingly paranoid about this and many other things. You really need to calm your mind.

More insults instead of substance.

You ought to declare your candidacy for Head Troll. Or did you already and I missed it?

Originally posted by @thinkofone

There doesn't seem much hope for you to be able to understand what I was saying about the "contradiction" that you asserted.

It is noted that there seems little to no hope you will defend your arbitrary method of discarding portions of the Gospels. Other than a wink to "trust" you, you cannot be anything but nebulous about what chapters. verses, passages lie OUTSIDE of "Jesus ministry as He walked the earth."

However as to the "jaywill" question, I want to remind you what I wrote about it the last time you asked about it:

I did not see that post.
This happens and I take your explanation.
You can call me sonship with as good a mind as you imply you have.

But more important is that you apply as much careful attention to clearly defining the scope in, say, Matthew and Luke at least a SAMPLE or EXAMPLE of words of the mouth of Jesus and actions from Him OUTSIDE of "the ministry of Jesus".

If you don't do it, I will assume that you CANNOT do it.
And if you cannot do it, don't expect me to simply trust your arbitrary whim driven desire to say -

"Oh, but you see this lies outside of Jesus' ministry while He walked the earth."

I call you jaywill because after years of interacting with you, that's how I thought of you and continue to think of you. It's as simple as that.

I've got your explanation.
Could you spend as many words on the problem of delineating the boundaries in Matthew and Luke beyond which the writer is no longer writing about "during Jesus' ministry while He walked the earth"?

Pasted from <https://www.redhotpawn.com/forum/spirituality/beware--red-letter-antichrists.175919/page-4#post_3841972>

Okay, I saw now for the first time.
Sorry I missed it before. Sorry everyone was "chomping at the bit" to do whatever.

You seem to have gotten increasingly paranoid about this and many other things. You really need to calm your mind.

More fatherly condescension aside, your NEXT post to us should be a hefty defense, BY EXAMPLE, of your method of discarding passages of Christ's speaking and acting, as outside of - "during Jesus ministry while He walked the earth".

Show us where the clock stops and we are lifted up into an existential non-historical realm of fictional mythology.
Chapters and verses please - Matthew and Luke.

Whether I am calm or excited should have no bearing on your ability to do this.