Originally posted by @sonship[/b]It does actually state these exceptions, if only you would read further on. You are like a duncy kid that only reads a couple lines and forms conclusions.
The word of God does not say no situational exceptions exist. It does say -
[b] "That if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved." (Rom. 10:9)
Read on, read further, read the whole story:
Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell,
severity; but toward thee, goodness,
if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
(Romans 11:22 JV)
Goodness to the new Christians
IF
they continue in his goodness
OTHERWISE
they will also be cut off.
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Originally posted by @rajk999Apparently you missed reading the very next verse:
It does actually state these exceptions, if only you would read further on. You are like a duncy kid that only reads a couple lines and forms conclusions.
Read on, read further, read the whole story:
[i]Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell,
severity; but toward thee, goodness,
[b]if thou continue in his goodness: o ...[text shortened]... the new Christians
IF
they continue in his goodness
OTHERWISE
they will also be cut off.
“And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.”
(Romans 11:23)
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Originally posted by @rajk999BTW, that section of Romans you quoted one verse from is talking about belief, not good works, as it appears you may have been supposing,
It does actually state these exceptions, if only you would read further on. You are like a duncy kid that only reads a couple lines and forms conclusions.
Read on, read further, read the whole story:
[i]Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell,
severity; but toward thee, goodness,
[b]if thou continue in his goodness: o ...[text shortened]... the new Christians
IF
they continue in his goodness
OTHERWISE
they will also be cut off.
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Whether ThinkOfOne replies immediately or waits until an opportune time and replies latter, his reply is inadequate.
Whether he takes up the reply in this thread or takes up the matter again in another thread much latter, the inadequacy of his handling of the Bible remains the same.
Time doesn't seem to fix your reading comprehension and believing of the New Testament, ToO.
He could just state "I just don't believe the New Testament, period." But this would probably be too honest. He resorts to a game in which it appears not to be an issue that large sections of the New Testament he discards as irrelevant. But he wants the dignity of a disciple of Christ without being associated with the shame of belief and trust in God's Son.
"Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men." (1 Cor. 1:25)
The redemptive death of Christ and His resurrection are not irrelevant side issues of some abstract shadowy mythological realm "not too important to the ministry of Jesus while He walked on earth."
The thought of relegating the miraculous life of the Son of God to unimportant mythology is ludicrous. His sinless and upstanding human life and His miraculous divine life are interwoven inextricably together in the New Testament.
Originally posted by @sonshipBy and large Christians don't allow the words of the gospel preached by Jesus to speak for themselves.
Whether ThinkOfOne replies immediately or waits until an opportune time and replies latter, his reply is inadequate.
Whether he takes up the reply in this thread or takes up the matter again in another thread much latter, the inadequacy of his handling of the Bible remains the same.
Time doesn't seem to fix your reading comprehension and believing of ...[text shortened]... and His miraculous divine life are interwoven inextricably [b]together in the New Testament.[/b]
Instead they pervert His words by awkwardly trying to make them fit into the gospel of Paul. Sometimes by the most gross perversions imaginable. Such Christians are not "followers of Jesus" as they so often purport. They are followers of Paul. This is all fact.
This phenomenon is summarized by the following from the OP:
The minute a kingdom hermeneutic comes up..., one colonizes Jesus’ kingdom hermeneutic by a justification hermeneutic. That is, we make Jesus talk Paul.
Or in more down to Earth terms from the OP in the "Red Letter Christians" thread:
Because Evangelicals have been steeped in the theology of the Pauline Epistles before they scrutinise the teachings of Jesus in the red letters of the Bible, they have read Jesus through the eyes of Paul.
This despite the fact that perhaps the most prevalent theme in the gospel preached by Jesus is the importance of the words He spoke in the gospel He preached during His ministry.
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Originally posted by @thinkofoneIf I’m not mistaken, you ignore the numerous instances Jesus says to believe in Him and on Him for salvation as well as Jesus’ statements about the New Covenant. You also apparently believe Jesus Christ was/is not the Son of God, which means you reject all of the miracles He performed and His Resurrection.
By and large Christians don't allow the words of the gospel preached by Jesus to speak for themselves.
Instead they pervert His words by awkwardly trying to make them fit into the gospel of Paul. Sometimes by the most gross perversions imaginable. Such Christians are not "followers of Jesus" as they so often purport. They are followers of Paul. This ...[text shortened]... by Jesus is the importance of the words He spoke in the gospel He preached during His ministry.
If I’m not mistaken - and please correct me if I’m wrong - you believe Jesus Christ was only a man and, at the same time, believe He had the authority to tell people they could not commit a single sin and enter heaven, an idea that is completely false and makes a mockery of God’s New Covenant and Christ’s blood sacrifice that made the New Covenant possible.
If Jesus Christ were only a man and not God in the flesh, as you apparently believe, why do you place so much authority on what He said pertaining to salvation?
Originally posted by @romans1009You repeatedly show that you neither hear nor understand what Jesus was actually saying. Instead you pervert what He was actually saying by projecting your own beliefs onto His words.
If I’m not mistaken, you ignore the numerous instances Jesus says to believe in Him and on Him for salvation as well as Jesus’ statements about the New Covenant. You also apparently believe Jesus Christ was/is not the Son of God, which means you reject all of the miracles He performed and His Resurrection.
If I’m not mistaken - and please correct me i ...[text shortened]... apparently believe, why do you place so much authority on what He said pertaining to salvation?
Jesus was not saying what you believe He was saying. Read what His words actually say instead of projecting your beliefs onto them. You really need to find a way to be honest with yourself.
Originally posted by @philokalia to FMFThis doesn't seem to have much integrity. It isn't very honest. It also isn't very brave. Frankly, I think this is what the liberals and secular humanists in general struggle from:not much integrity or courage, not much inventiveness. Really willing to just be the small souled bugmen who recycle the easiest arguments and take the paths of least resistance. Obviously, not the spirit upon which civilizations are built. Not very creative, nto very smart, not very... praiseworthy. The antithesis of the philosopher.
"Small souled bugman"? Oh, dear. So you didn't like what I posted?
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Originally posted by @thinkofoneIt’s very telling that you refuse to say whether you believe Jesus Christ was/is the Son of God.
You repeatedly show that you neither hear nor understand what Jesus was actually saying. Instead you pervert what He was actually saying by projecting your own beliefs onto His words.
Jesus was not saying what you believe He was saying. Read what His words actually say instead of projecting your beliefs onto them. You really need to find a way to be honest with yourself.
That is why you are obsessed with good works. You can’t acknowledge that believing in Christ and accepting Him into your heart is necessary for salvation because you think Jesus was only a man.
But then you’re stuck trying to explain by what authority a mortal man can credibly tell other mortal men how to enter heaven.
You’re also stuck trying to explain why one mortal man’s Gospel message (under your misinterpretation) takes precedence or has more credibility than another man’s Gospel message.
Of course, I’m giving you the benefit of the doubt in not attributing a sinister motive to the false message you’re trying to spread.
I just think you’re honestly mistaken and confused.
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Originally posted by @romans1009What he also can't seem to get into his head is that if good works were enough to save us there was no need for Jesus to die on the cross.
It’s very telling that you refuse to say whether you believe Jesus Christ was/is the Son of God.
That is why you are obsessed with good works. You can’t acknowledge that believing in Christ and accepting Him into your heart is necessary for salvation because you think Jesus was only a man.
But then you’re stuck trying to explain by what authority a ...[text shortened]... he false message you’re trying to spread.
I just think you’re honestly mistaken and confused.
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Originally posted by @dj2beckerThat’s a great point.
What he also can't seem to get into his head is that if good works were enough to save us there was no need for Jesus to die on the cross.
Plus, salvation by good works equates to everybody being saved since everyone, at one time or another, has done something good or nice for someone else.
But don’t ask how many good works are needed for salvation or what types of good works are needed or whether bad works cancel out good works or whether a just God would base salvation on good works and never identify how many need to be done.
The salvation by works crowd will never answer those questions and instead will start trolling.
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Originally posted by @thinkofone
By and large Christians don't allow the words of the gospel preached by Jesus to speak for themselves.
You are one not allowing Christ's words to speak for themselves. Your rejection of some very important words of Christ you disguise behind blaming a faithful pioneering man like the Apostle Paul.
1.) You do not receive the Son of God as a delegated authority from the Father.
2.) You further do not receive His apostles as delegated authorities sent to carry out His commission, and that regardless of how faithful they were.
Before any problem you have with Paul, you have serious problems with Jesus Christ.
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Instead they pervert His words by awkwardly trying to make them fit into the gospel of Paul.
What is terribly awkward is how you attempt to discard large and vital sections of even Christ's ministry, even before you come to Acts or the epistles.
It is so awkward that you cannot admit your methodology.
The awkwardness of your methods is frankly an embarrassment to you, I think.
So you won't admit that you have no good reason to discard Luke 23,24, Matthew 27,28, John 19,20,21, Mark 15,16. Hardly anything could be more "awkward" then reading the four Gospels trying to ignore Christ's death and resurrection AND instructions to His disciples.
Even before you get to His crucifixion quite a few times I see your awkward obfuscation and apathy about Christ's own concepts about His anticipated death and resurrection.
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Sometimes by the most gross perversions imaginable. Such Christians are not "followers of Jesus" as they so often purport. They are followers of Paul. This is all fact.
Your problem is not as much with Paul as it is with Jesus the Son of God. The misdirection towards Christ's apostle simply does not disguise your deeper rejection of Christ.
This to me is a man trying to bribe his conscience. "I have this and that good reason to disbelieve the words and work of Jesus as recorded in the Gospels."
Rather than the obedience of faith you disbelieve and bribe your conscience by trying to bring something ELSE as a rationale to God.
I wish you could see that this is Cain offering his rejected worship to God all over again. From earliest days of man on earth, they refuse to bring what God requires in favor of bringing what THEY can boast in as their own offering.
This phenomenon is summarized by the following from the OP:
The minute a kingdom hermeneutic comes up..., one colonizes Jesus’ kingdom hermeneutic by a justification hermeneutic. That is, we make Jesus talk Paul.
You cannot blame Pauline theology for your utter rejection of Christ's own teaching and prediction of His redemptive death and resurrection.
"Just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve and to give His life as a ransom for many." (Matt. 20:28)
Before we get to the epistles Christ's OWN words tell us what it means for Him to give His life as a ransom. You reject this.
Furthermore, that so much help was rendered to the church by the apostles, especially Paul, was God's way. The irony of your complaint is that the church should not trust Paul to interpret Christ but we should instead trust YOU.
Sure, that is the irony. When you come discarding His resurrection as mythological, you are in utter competition not only with Jesus Himself but with the apostles as well.
We have to come to YOU for the inside story on your favorite "red letters" - a selective collection, non-miraculous, seeming to uphold your presupposed humanist philosophy.
Or in more down to Earth terms from the OP in the "Red Letter Christians" thread: ...
I have not read much on that thread so I reserve comment.