The Gospel of Jesus vs The Gospel of Paul

Originally posted by @rajk999
Of course, I am indoctrinated by Christ who said that those who enters the Kingdom of God are the ones who do good works. Paul told Christians, [Ephesians, Galatians, Corinthians, Phillipians and more ] who are saved, that unless they also do good works and live righteously they will not inherit the Kingdom of God. {Saved does not imply eternal life]

...[text shortened]... od works and righteousness.
What is common among those who are cast out is a lack of good works

<<Here is what I believe ... again:
- Jesus saved ALL PEOPLE by his death, not just Christians
- The Faithful Christians WILL DO GOOD WORKS and they will rule with Christ.
- The mouth worshiping Christians will be destroyed along with evildoers.
- Those who profess no faith but whose works are pleasing to Christ will enter the Kingdom of God.>>

You’re not far from the truth here.

On the first point, yes, Jesus’ sacrificial death covered the sins of everyone. But one must accept Christ into his or her heart and recognize His atoning sacrifice is what makes them righteous (in right standing with God) to be saved. The opportunity to accept Christ is available to everyone.

On your second point, yes, those whose belief in Christ is sincere will do good works as God’s Holy Spirit has indwelt them and is working to change their heart.

Your third point is spot on. Mouth worshipping Christians - those who did not sincerely accept Christ into their hearts - will indeed be destroyed, but I wouldn’t classify or define them as Christians in the first place.

Your last point is simply false and is refuted numerous times in the Bible by Jesus Christ’s disciples, Paul and Jesus Christ Himself.

Originally posted by @dj2becker
If it were an atheist I would totally understand.

Or a Buddhist? Jainist? Hindu?

All view good works as essential for enlightenment/salvation.

Originally posted by @romans1009
<<And again, why the need to say 'troll' at least 10 times a day. I'm sure I'm not alone in cringing every time you say it. People responding and challenging you on your posts is not trolling. It's debating. - You do exactly the same thing yourself (tenfold).>>

I think you’re exaggerating the frequency and I only say someone is trolling when they resp ...[text shortened]... d have said.

I would think as Head Troll Emeritus, you would know the definition of trolling.

I think if you stopped and did a quick tally up you'd be surprised how often you accuse people of trolling. It really is very silly. (And offensive).

Trolls are those despicable creatures who log in to memorial sites to mock the grieving or who post sick and twisted posts that are actually illegal. A troll is not somebody who challenges you over something you posted, even if they are tenacious and sarcastic. It's about time you learned the difference.

It is not even trolling to accuse you of using multiple accounts, if the accusation is genuinely believed. (Which it is).


Edit: And on the point of 'exaggerating the number of times you say troll a day (by saying it was 10) I have just scanned over the posts you have made today (21/02/18) and have counted at least 11 accusations by you of people trolling. 11!!! (And I may have missed some).

Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-duke
Or a Buddhist? Jainist? Hindu?

All view good works as essential for enlightenment/salvation.

And they’re all wrong as it pertains to salvation.

The concept of sacrificing life for sins is a consistent theme from the Old Testament to the New Testament and not a system of man’s. Indeed even Christ’s own disciples were surprised by His crucifixion - and especially His Resurrection - despite Jesus telling them ahead of time that is what would happen.

Originally posted by @romans1009
And they’re all wrong as it pertains to salvation.

The concept of sacrificing life for sins is a consistent theme from the Old Testament to the New Testament and not a system of man’s. Indeed even Christ’s own disciples were surprised by His crucifixion - and especially His Resurrection - despite Jesus telling them ahead of time that is what would happen.

You alone have the authority and certainty to say all those millions of Hindus, Buddhists and Jainists are wrong?!

Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-duke
I think if you stopped and did a quick tally up you'd be surprised how often you accuse people of trolling. It really is very silly. (And offensive).

Trolls are those despicable creatures who log in to memorial sites to mock the grieving or who post sick and twisted posts that are actually illegal. A troll is not somebody who challenges you over ...[text shortened]... e counted at least 11 accusations by you of people trolling. 11!!! (And I may have missed some).

<<A troll is not somebody who challenges you over something you posted, even if they are tenacious and sarcastic. It's about time you learned the difference>>

As I said, I only accuse someone of trolling when they respond to legitimate and sincere questions with insults and when they deliberately misrepresent what I have said and bear false witness against me.

<<It is not even trolling to accuse you of using multiple accounts, if the accusation is genuinely believed. (Which it is).>>

It is trolling when there’s no evidence to support that accusation, and there’s not because it’s false.

<<Edit: And on the point of 'exaggerating the number of times you say troll a day (by saying it was 10) I have just scanned over the posts you have made today (21/02/18) and have counted at least 11 accusations by you of people trolling. 11!!! (And I may have missed some).[/b]>>

I don’t believe that’s accurate at all, but in the very unlikely case it is, that certainly demonstrates how often atheists and false doctrine Christians spend insulting and bearing false witness against me.

Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-duke
You alone have the authority and certainty to say all those millions of Hindus, Buddhists and Jainists are wrong?!

No. Jesus Christ alone has that authority.

“Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.”

(John 14:6)

Originally posted by @romans1009
<<A troll is not somebody who challenges you over something you posted, even if they are tenacious and sarcastic. It's about time you learned the difference>>

As I said, I only accuse someone of trolling when they respond to legitimate and sincere questions with insults and when they deliberately misrepresent what I have said and bear false witness ag ...[text shortened]... ten atheists and false doctrine Christians spend insulting and bearing false witness against me.

By all means, go and count yourself how many times you have said troll today.

I make it 12!!! (And the day's not even finished).

Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-duke
By all means, go and count yourself how many times you have said troll today.

I make it 12!!! (And the day's not even finished).

I’m not bored enough to do that (and hope I never will be) and am surprised you consider taking the time to count how many times I say someone is trolling (and then falsely reporting the number) to be a worthwhile endeavor.

And, as I said earlier, I only say someone is trolling when they respond to legitimate and sincere questions with insults and deliberate misrepresentations of what I believe.

Originally posted by @romans1009
And they’re all wrong as it pertains to salvation.

The concept of sacrificing life for sins is a consistent theme from the Old Testament to the New Testament and not a system of man’s. Indeed even Christ’s own disciples were surprised by His crucifixion - and especially His Resurrection - despite Jesus telling them ahead of time that is what would happen.

The concept of sacrificing life for sins is a consistent theme from the Old Testament to the New Testament and not a system of man’s.

Actually the later OT prophets recognized that God had had enough sacrifice - He wanted knowledge of God and loyalty instead. The gospel preached by Jesus during His ministry was a logical extension of this concept.

Hosea 6
6 For I delight in loyalty rather than sacrifice,
And in the knowledge of God rather than burnt offerings.

Originally posted by @romans1009
I’m not bored enough to do that (and hope I never will be) and am surprised you consider taking the time to count how many times I say someone is trolling (and then falsely reporting the number) to be a worthwhile endeavor.

And, as I said earlier, I only say someone is trolling when they respond to legitimate and sincere questions with insults and deliberate misrepresentations of what I believe.

Claiming it is a 'false report' is itself a false report.

You do that a lot. (Ignoring genuine evidence that is easily verifiable).

Originally posted by @sonship

Sometimes by the most gross perversions imaginable. Such Christians are not "followers of Jesus" as they so often purport. They are followers of Paul. This is all fact.

Your problem is not as much with Paul as it is with Jesus the Son of God. The misdirection towards Christ's apostle simply does not disguise your deeper rejection of Chr ...[text shortened]... tter Christians" thread: ... [/quote]
I have not read much on that thread so I reserve comment.

Matthew 20
26“It is not this way among you, but whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant, 27and whoever wishes to be first among you shall be your slave; 28just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.”

The word translated as "ransom" literally means "the purchasing money for manumitting slaves". It is only used figuratively as a sacrifice for the atonement of sins.

Read Matthew 20:26-28 in its entirety. Jesus wants His disciples to serve others by giving their lives to FREEing others from slavery just as He did..

The concept of "the purchasing money for manumitting slaves" is entirely consistent with what I've posted so often about those who abide in Jesus' word are set FREE from the slavery of committing sin.

In Luke 4 at the beginning of the ministry of Jesus, Jesus declares that one of the purposes for which He was anointed was to "proclaim release to the captives".

Jesus later provided details about what this entails in the following:
John 8
"34Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin."
" 31 ...If you abide in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; 32and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.”
"36So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed. "
" 35The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever.
51Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he will never see death.”

Those who abide in His word are made FREE from the slavery of committing sin. The gospel preached by Jesus during His ministry is consistent about this.

Matthew 26:28 is also consistent with this.

Why don't you allow the words of the gospel preached by Jesus to speak for themselves? Instead you pervert His words by awkwardly trying to make them fit into the gospel of Paul.

Originally posted by @thinkofone

The word translated as "ransom" literally means "the purchasing money for manumitting slaves". It is only used figuratively as a sacrifice for the atonement of sins.

And is it not you who frequently points out that he who commits sin is a SLAVE to sin? (John 8:34)

The slaves to sin are in custody of the Law of God. Legally they are under its penalty. And Christ paid the ransom to purchase the sinners out from under the law of God.

"Knowing that it was not with corruptible things, with silver or gold [money] that you were redeemed from your vain manner of life handed down from your fathers,

But with the precious blood, as of a Lamb without blemish and without spot, the blood of Christ." (1 Peter 1:18,19)

No, I don't think you know better than the Apostle Peter what it means for the "Lamb" to ransom slaves to both sin and the condemning law of God through the blood of Christ.

Read Matthew 20:26-28 in its entirety. Jesus wants His disciples to serve others by giving their lives to FREEing others from slavery just as He did..

It is true that self sacrifice of the disciples is taught by Jesus. They cannot self sacrifice to carrying out the work of eternal redemption. Only He, the sinless Son of God is able to do that.

That is both a redeeming act and an example.
1.) There is an aspect of self sacrifice that ONLY He can fulfill.
2.) There is an aspect of self sacrifice that they TOO can follow.

Yes, for the disciples to pick up their cross and follow Him is indeed a matter of self sacrifice. You cannot use that to argue that His one and only unique accomplishment of a redeeming death was was not done.

Jesus told them that like Him, some of them would also die. This does not mean He did not die a once and for all ransoming death of eternal redemption.

Originally posted by @thinkofone
[b]The concept of sacrificing life for sins is a consistent theme from the Old Testament to the New Testament and not a system of man’s.

Actually the later OT prophets recognized that God had had enough sacrifice - He wanted knowledge of God and loyalty instead. The gospel preached by Jesus during His ministry was a logical extension of this conc ...[text shortened]... lty rather than sacrifice,
And in the knowledge of God rather than burnt offerings.[/b]

God is no longer interested in *humans* offering sacrifices - one suspects because the sacrifices were done by habit and not in sincere repentance.

God ended the sacrificial system once and for all by Jesus Christ’s sacrifice on the cross for the sins of all.

All a human being must do now to become righteous (in right standing with God) is sincerely accept Christ into his or her heart - no more sacrifices needed. Jesus did it all and accomplished it all!

In Matthew 19:17-19 Jesus again predicts His death and resurrection DURING HIS MINISTRY...WHILE HE WALKED ON EARTH.

"And as Jesus was going up to Jerusalem, He took the twelve disciples aside privately, and on the way said to them,

Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be delivered to the chief priests and scribes. And they will condemn Him to death,

And deliver Him to the Gentiles to mock and to scourge and to crucify Him, and on the third day He will be raised." (Matt. 19:17-19)

Though redemption may not to be a prominent part of that parable (20:1-16) His redeeming death is central to the following prediction.

How can we know this?
Why could it not [edited] simply be a dying and rising apart from Christ paying a ransom for sinners?

I looked in the nearest proximity of the words to find the nearest indication. And I would propose briefly TWO sections flanking Matthew 19:17-19.

1.) In the parable of the unforgiving servant in Matt. 18:23-35. The "master" clearly represents Jesus Christ. And the unforgiving servant has been FORGIVEN all of his dept. This should indicate that Christ, before employing the service of His slaves, has begun the relationship by FIRST cancelling out all of their dept of sin to God.

But you may protest. "But in that parable the forgiven yet unforgiving slave is punished." (Matt. 18:32-35).

Exactly true. But the discipline is not an eternal punishment. It is "UNTIL he repayed all that he owed." (v.34) . That means dispensational and temporary punishment to teach him a lesson.

The concept is entirely consistent with the reward or discipline dispensed by Christ the King not as related to eternity, BUT as related to the coming millennial reign.
Eternal redemption does not mean Christ cannot correct, discipline, punish temporarily rather than reward during the millennial kingdom.

2.) Briefly, the other "book end" passage that flanks Christ's prediction of His death and resurrection is the incident with the rich young ruler in Matt.19:16-26.

In that incident the impossibility of man, through law keeping, to be worthy to enter the kingdom of the heavens is stressed. As good as the rich young ruler was he departed in sadness because he simply could not fulfill the uttermost consecration to obey God.

"And the disciples heard this they were greatly astonished and said, Who then can be saved?" (v.25)

A camel can more easily go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

The reply of Jesus to their astonishment is interesting. He looks upon them as if He knows something that they do not yet realize. By His redeeming death men CAN enter into the kingdom of God. With God and His redemption all things are possible.

"And looking upon them, Jesus said to them, With men this is IMPOSSIBLE, but with God all things are possible." (v.26)

The impossibility with sinful men will be made possible with the God of eternal redemption thanks to Christ's dying a vicarious atoning death, a death from which He will also rise to shepherd men into God's kingdom.