The Hagia Sophia

@philokalia said
I am an Orthodox Christian and I can say that this is a personal insult and a travesty.

I would also think that many good Muslims would likely be disappointed with this as well because this really does amount to hijacking another religion's property. Where's the dignity in that?

There's none.

I would be embarrassed if the Orthodox did this to anyone else.

You have talked publically here about how you are a relatively recent convert to Orthodox Christianity. Clearly, with that conversion - as you have described - came a sudden feeling of "personal insult" because of something that happened to the Orthodox Christian church in a foreign country 560 years ago.

As a result of that relatively recent conversion to Orthodox Christianity, did there also come a sudden feeling of "travesty" and "personal insult" because of chattel slavery of Black people in, for example, your own country only a couple of hundred years ago?

@fmf saidAs a result of that relatively recent conversion to Orthodox Christianity, did there also come a sudden feeling of "travesty" and "personal insult" because of chattel slavery of Black people in, for example, your own country only a couple of hundred years ago?

Oh no, of course not.

I grew up with that feeling and had it imprinted on me as perhaps my first political thoughts.

@philokalia said
Oh no, of course not.

I grew up with that feeling and had it imprinted on me as perhaps my first political thoughts.

So did your conversion to Orthodox Christianity suddenly cause you to start justifying slavery in past centuries as you have done here on this forum and as many Christians do?

You say you grew up with a feeling of "travesty and personal insult" because of chattel slavery of Black people in history and it was perhaps your "first political thought" and yet then, when you converted to Orthodox Christianity, you suddenly started arguing that it was morally sound at certain times in history, is that right?

@fmf said
So did your conversion to Orthodox Christianity suddenly cause you to start justifying slavery in past centuries as you have done here on this forum and as many Christians do?

You say you grew up with a feeling of "travesty and personal insult" because of chattel slavery of Black people in history and it was perhaps your "first political thought" and yet then, when you conver ...[text shortened]... , you suddenly started arguing that it was morally sound at certain times in history, is that right?

No, not at all. I had eventually learned in elementary & Jr. High school classes why rigid class systems previously existed in history, and even during my period as a non-Christian I used these arguments.

In fact, especially when I was a non-Christian I was fond of "punching the bourgeoisie" (as the Romanians say) by reflecting on topics like this.

^^

Any specific questions yuo want to ask about this?

@philokalia said
No, not at all. I had eventually learned in elementary & Jr. High school classes why rigid class systems previously existed in history, and even during my period as a non-Christian I used these arguments.

In fact, especially when I was a non-Christian I was fond of "punching the bourgeoisie" (as the Romanians say) by reflecting on topics like this.

^^

Any specific questions yuo want to ask about this?

So you grew up learning how to justify slavery and you were taught in elementary and junior high school to internalize arguments that support the economic reasons for human beings being owned as chattel and now, having recently converted to Orthodox Christianity, these apologies and justifications are somewhat 'sanctified', so to speak, by your new-found religious beliefs?

Is that the long and short of it?

@fmf said
So you grew up learning how to justify slavery and you were taught in elementary and junior high school to internalize arguments that support the economic reasons for human beings being owned as chattel and now, having recently converted to Orthodox Christianity, these apologies and justifications are somewhat 'sanctified', so to speak, by your new-found religious beliefs?

Is that the long and short of it?

Actually, I think that there is no position you could come to that is universal to an Orthodox Christian perspective on slavery, and I wouldn't venture to do it.

@philokalia said
Actually, I think that there is no position you could come to that is universal to an Orthodox Christian perspective on slavery, and I wouldn't venture to do it.

I as asking about your perspective as a recent convert to Orthodox Christianity. I haven't asked for a "universal" one. You have introduced the word "universal", not me.

You see, I was responding to this:

recently converted to Orthodox Christianity, these apologies and justifications are somewhat 'sanctified', so to speak, by your new-found religious beliefs?

With

Actually, I think that there is no position you could come to that is universal to an Orthodox Christian perspective on slavery, and I wouldn't venture to do it.

to say that my views on slavery do not correlate with any Orthodox perspective.

@philokalia said
You see, I was responding to this:

recently converted to Orthodox Christianity, these apologies and justifications are somewhat 'sanctified', so to speak, by your new-found religious beliefs?

With

Actually, I think that there is no position you could come to that is universal to an Orthodox Christian perspective on slavery, and I wouldn't v ...[text shortened]... to do it.

to say that my views on slavery do not correlate with any Orthodox perspective.

Do your Christian beliefs really not have a bearing on your arguments justifying slavery?

@fmf said
Do your Christian beliefs really not have a bearing on your arguments justifying slavery?

One of the more controversial aspects of the Bible is that it permits slavery in the Old Testament very explicitly, and it tells servants/slaves to be kind to their masters (and vice versa).

I have generally concluded that the Bible thinks of this as a concession, just as how Christ explained that divorce was initially allowed as a concession for the Hebrews, and I've agreed with the Church in the idea that any form of maltreatment of slaves or servants is wrong, and the trajectory of human history, at the hands of the Church, is towards the abolition of slavery, serfdom, etc., and other statuses.

But it is actually a complicated issue because one has to understand that, in many circumstances in the Roman world, slaves were more privileged than non-citizen subjects who were farmers or very impoverished freeman. Indeed, some slaves were actually skilled laborers who would even in some circumstances easily earn enough money for their eventual emancipation and would go on to accrue wealth that was unimaginable for some tribesman in Gaul or farmer.

Thus... it's a complicated issue, and talking about slavery in the ancient world from a completely modern context is just as useless as the faux outrage that often accompanies the bad historical takes.

@philokalia said
One of the more controversial aspects of the Bible is that it permits slavery in the Old Testament very explicitly, and it tells servants/slaves to be kind to their masters (and vice versa).

I have generally concluded that the Bible thinks of this as a concession, just as how Christ explained that divorce was initially allowed as a concession for the Hebrews, an ...[text shortened]... dern context is just as useless as the faux outrage that often accompanies the bad historical takes.

This is a pile of waffly BS by you, and I’ll prove it.

If you feel that slavery is a concession which is explicitly morally permissible, then are you transposing that morality to the black slave trade of recent history?

If so, then admit it. If not then why create this grandstand of biblical perspective?

@divegeester said
This is a pile of waffly BS by you, and I’ll prove it.

If you feel that slavery is a concession which is explicitly morally permissible, then are you transposing that morality to the black slave trade of recent history?

I haven't even commented on this. All I've said is that, of course, some of my very first sentiments of a political nature were hatred towards slavery and racism. This exists also entirely independently of any religious position.

This would, of course, include the transatlantic slave trade.

How would I be transposing that morality to the black slave trade in this thread..?

@philokalia said
I have generally concluded that the Bible thinks of this as a concession, just as how Christ explained that divorce was initially allowed as a concession for the Hebrews, and I've agreed with the Church in the idea that any form of maltreatment of slaves or servants is wrong, and the trajectory of human history, at the hands of the Church, is towards the abolition of slavery, serfdom, etc., and other statuses.

Where does the Bible talk about this "trajectory... towards the abolition of slavery"?

@fmf said
Where does the Bible talk about this "trajectory... towards the abolition of slavery"?

I actually stated

and the trajectory of human history, at the hands of the Church, is towards the abolition of slavery, serfdom, etc., and other statuses.

So, the prevailing attitude towards masters being kind to their slaves, as it is stated in the Bible, is oriented towards the philosophy that the slaves themselves should be freed out of the kindness of the masters, as it has been interpreted by the church fathers and Saints who have supported these efforts.

@philokalia said

How would I be transposing that morality to the black slave trade in this thread..?

When you said this

@Philokalia said
One of the more controversial aspects of the Bible is that it permits slavery in the Old Testament very explicitly, and it tells servants/slaves to be kind to their masters (and vice versa).

I have generally concluded that the Bible thinks of this as a concession, just as how Christ explained that divorce was initially allowed as a concession for the Hebrews, and I've agreed with the Church in the idea that any form of maltreatment of slaves or servants is wrong, and the trajectory of human history, at the hands of the Church, is towards the abolition of slavery, serfdom, etc., and other statuses.