the real issue

Originally posted by knightmeister
Now you are getting somewhat closer. This is good. Now what if God gives a little of his spirit to us or more accurately prompts our spirit into a decision making situation? Remember that many moral decisons often require an act of surrender (eg from a position of pride/ stubborness to love) . Making the wrong choice then becomes a matter of resisting ...[text shortened]... ge us to let go and surrender to his will , but this is not the same as forcing us (determinism)

You are still skirting round and refusing to answer the question.
How is a decision made by you? Is it random or caused? You are equating determinism with "caused by God" or "caused by and external entity" which is false. If the decisions ultimate result is due to the deliberations of your mind then it is deterministic in nature. If not then it is random. The whole section on Gods interference is irrelevant and has no impact whatsoever on the basic issue but it looks like your aim is to preach religion and not make any logical sense.

Originally posted by twhitehead
You are still skirting around the central issue and that is how is the choice made in your opinion?
It is either
1. Random
2. Caused.
If 2 then what are the causes? How do they differ from mechanistic causes? Why must you be held responsible for them?

Even in your imaginary non-mechanistic environment is my choice is made based on past experience ...[text shortened]... g' choice?
1. Random chance.
2. Incorrect information.
3. Faulty decision making machinery.

Why in your opinion do people make the 'wrong' choice?
1. Random chance.
2. Incorrect information.
3. Faulty decision making machinery.

An excellent posing of the question—which has not been directly answered.

Some theists seem to maintain that there is a 4th reason—perversity of some sort (“sin” ). But that does not get around it either.

There are always determining factors that condition/constrain our ability to choose. Some of those factors are internal (the nature of our consciousness); some are external (our existential condition). Libertarian “free will” reduces to either randomness or incoherency.

Originally posted by twhitehead
You are still skirting round and refusing to answer the question.
How is a decision made by you? Is it random or caused? You are equating determinism with "caused by God" or "caused by and external entity" which is false. If the decisions ultimate result is due to the deliberations of your mind then it is deterministic in nature. If not then it is random ...[text shortened]... basic issue but it looks like your aim is to preach religion and not make any logical sense.

These are deep questions but I will give it a go. First of all I reject the notion of the choice either being random or caused. I would include the other option of God embedding in us divine nature or spirit which enables us to choose freely. For example , choosing God means that at the point of conversion God is right there with you prompting you to choose him but he does not force. He makes a free choice possible by leading us to that point via the Holy Spirit and enabling us to choose through the power of his Spirit. Now , because the Spirit is God himself it/he is not subject either to randomness OR being caused (because God is uncaused and free) However , this can only work if we surrender our spirit to him voluntarily , but by the same token he helps us to surrender as well (note helps NOT forces) . This is where the intimate relationship between what God does and how we respond breaks up into a bit of a mystery. But I hope this gives some insight.

Originally posted by vistesd
[b]Why in your opinion do people make the 'wrong' choice?
1. Random chance.
2. Incorrect information.
3. Faulty decision making machinery.

An excellent posing of the question—which has not been directly answered.

Some theists seem to maintain that there is a 4th reason—perversity of some sort (“sin” ). But that does not get around it either. ...[text shortened]... existential condition). Libertarian “free will” reduces to either randomness or incoherency.[/b]

What is the word 'wrong' doing in this question?

Surely the outcome determines the assessment of the result of any choice, and so is like saying 'the millionaire got rich'.....

Originally posted by knightmeister
These are deep questions but I will give it a go. First of all I reject the notion of the choice either being random or caused.

Actually you didn't even try to answer the question. As usual you just invented another meaningless word and pretended it solved the problem.
What on earth do you mean by "enables us to choose freely". Is that random or caused? It is one or the other by definition not by choice. if you have another definition for random other than "not caused' then lets hear it.

Originally posted by twhitehead
Actually you didn't even try to answer the question. As usual you just invented another meaningless word and pretended it solved the problem.
What on earth do you mean by "enables us to choose freely". Is that random or caused? It is one or the other by definition not by choice. if you have another definition for random other than "not caused' then lets hear it.

You are obviously not reading my posts at all

"What on earth do you mean by "enables us to choose freely". Is that random or caused? It is one or the other by definition not by choice. if you have another definition for random other than "not caused' then lets hear it"WHITEY

It's ironic that you say "what on earth" because I do mean something not of this world , namely the presence of God's spirit with us. God's spirit is neither random or caused because it emanates from God himself. God is in essence Uncaused because he is not reliant or determined by anything else. He is thus free and able to make free conscious choices. If he then "enables us" to make free choices via the power of his spirit then that empowering is neither random (because it is a conscious reasoned act of God) nor determined/caused (because God is uncaused). You may disagree with the answer or not understand it , but it is an answer nevertheless.

Originally posted by knightmeister
It's ironic that you say "what on earth" because I do mean something not of this world , namely the presence of God's spirit with us.

I used that phrase because I thought it was funny.

God's spirit is neither random or caused because it emanates from God himself.
I repeat, either redefine the words or accept that it is one or the other. Even God cant get round the basic logic of complements.

God is in essence Uncaused because he is not reliant or determined by anything else.
Then he is random by definition of the word.

He is thus free and able to make free conscious choices.
This does not follow as you have not defined what "free" means.

If he then "enables us" to make free choices via the power of his spirit then that empowering is neither random (because it is a conscious reasoned act of God)
"because it is a conscious reasoned act of God" means caused.

nor determined/caused (because God is uncaused).
Now you are contradicting yourself.

You may disagree with the answer or not understand it , but it is an answer nevertheless.
Maybe you should use English then I might understand it. If it is English then it is nonsense and thus not an answer.

Originally posted by twhitehead
I used that phrase because I thought it was funny.

[b]God's spirit is neither random or caused because it emanates from God himself.
I repeat, either redefine the words or accept that it is one or the other. Even God cant get round the basic logic of complements.

God is in essence Uncaused because he is not reliant or determined by anything ...[text shortened]... then I might understand it. If it is English then it is nonsense and thus not an answer.

God is in essence Uncaused because he is not reliant or determined by anything else.KM
Then he is random by definition of the word. WHITEY

And there's the problem. You equate the idea of the essence an uncaused supreme being with randomness. This is fine if you want to do this , but if God does exist in the form of the Christian faith then he is patently not random but makes conscious choices determined by nothing other than his own charactor and his will. This would not be the same as randomness with all it's chaotic implications because it would be the product of an intelligent structured mind. Now you might say God doesn't exist and that's fine but the christian God random????

You need to explain what you mean by this.

Originally posted by knightmeister
You need to explain what you mean by this.

A random event is one that is uncaused. If you have a better definition then lets hear it as I have already asked several times.

The problem you have is that you are applying the claim that God is uncaused to everything to do with God which is patently false even by your own words. You say that his decisions are based on "the product of an intelligent structured mind." which clearly makes his decisions caused.
It almost as if you have invented a new meaning for "uncaused" and are using it like it is a property of God.

One random (uncaused) event can cause another event.

Originally posted by twhitehead
A random event is one that is uncaused. If you have a better definition then lets hear it as I have already asked several times.

The problem you have is that you are applying the claim that God is uncaused to everything to do with God which is patently false even by your own words. You say that his decisions are based on "the product of an intelligent ...[text shortened]... ing it like it is a property of God.

One random (uncaused) event can cause another event.

A random event is one that is uncaused. If you have a better definition then lets hear it as I have already asked several times.....


....ah but God is not an event or an effect . He just is. He is radically different from that. He is supreme uncaused reality. What do you think caused him to make his decisions ? Another God? Bizzarre! God is God there is nowhere else to go. The intelligence of God is not some quality given to him by some random event. It IS him. Maybe it's hard for you because you don't understand the idea of God being eternal and uncaused . He has no beginning. He has always been . This is different from a random event. He is the cause of all causes. When I refer to God being uncaused I mean he is free from causality but not random because what makes him free of causality is his unlimited power and infinite existence.

Originally posted by knightmeister
....ah but God is not an event or an effect . He just is. He is radically different from that. He is supreme uncaused reality. What do you think caused him to make his decisions ? Another God? Bizzarre! God is God there is nowhere else to go. The intelligence of God is not some quality given to him by some random event. It IS him. Maybe it's hard for you because you don't understand the idea of God being eternal and uncaused .

As always you refuse to define random because you realize the inevitable conclusion that by your previous claims, Gods decisions might just be random. And stop trying to run away by using phrases like "hard for you to understand".

He has no beginning. He has always been . This is different from a random event. He is the cause of all causes. When I refer to God being uncaused I mean he is free from causality but not random because what makes him free of causality is his unlimited power and infinite existence.
You still don't get the difference between an internal causality and and external one. Just because God is uncaused by your definition does not make all his decisions uncaused. In fact you explicitly state that they are caused by his intelligence.

Originally posted by twhitehead
As always you refuse to define random because you realize the inevitable conclusion that by your previous claims, Gods decisions might just be random. And stop trying to run away by using phrases like "hard for you to understand".

[b]He has no beginning. He has always been . This is different from a random event. He is the cause of all causes. When I r ...[text shortened]... is decisions uncaused. In fact you explicitly state that they are caused by his intelligence.

Just because God is uncaused by your definition does not make all his decisions uncaused. In fact you explicitly state that they are caused by his intelligence.WHITEY

But his decisions would be dependent on nothing but himself. He would be free to do whatever he liked because there is nothing determining him. Even an internal causation has to be linked to an external cause at some point to make it an unfree decision.

At this point it's hard to speculate about what goes on inside the mind of God (LOL) I would say that his mind is unlikely to be like anything we can compare in this world.

Originally posted by twhitehead
As always you refuse to define random because you realize the inevitable conclusion that by your previous claims, Gods decisions might just be random. And stop trying to run away by using phrases like "hard for you to understand".

[b]He has no beginning. He has always been . This is different from a random event. He is the cause of all causes. When I r ...[text shortened]... is decisions uncaused. In fact you explicitly state that they are caused by his intelligence.

And stop trying to run away by using phrases like "hard for you to understand" WHITEY

It's hard for me too. How are we to really understand an uncaused eternal entity free of causality and time?

Originally posted by twhitehead
As always you refuse to define random because you realize the inevitable conclusion that by your previous claims, Gods decisions might just be random. And stop trying to run away by using phrases like "hard for you to understand".

[b]He has no beginning. He has always been . This is different from a random event. He is the cause of all causes. When I r ...[text shortened]... is decisions uncaused. In fact you explicitly state that they are caused by his intelligence.

Gods decisions might just be randomWHITEY

But if God really does exist then his decisions don't seem to be random , there is a definite meaning and purpose to them. I don't know of a religion that posits a random God so whilst what you are saying might be true , if he does exist then it can't be true. Certainly the Christian God is not random. You can say he doesn't exist if you like.