the real issue

Originally posted by knightmeister
I disagree. If you look at what is happening here Scotty moves from talking about evidence and then drifts into talking about "proof" . It depends what context one talks about evidence. For scotty the only evidence possible is that which can constitute scientific proof , however , ace is talking about evidence nonetheless. His evidence does not wash w ...[text shortened]... ds on how we interpret the world around us and our experiences. We all see different things.

I would agree that it is evidence. However it is not the "OBJECTIVE EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE" that scotty was talking about.
I would also say that from the point of view of an atheist, it is very weak evidence as there are more plausible explanations for the phenomena.
The problem is that many theists are unwilling to consider the other explanations for the evidence.
For example in the thread titled "if a christian" EcstremeVenom is clearly convinced that dead people can talk via Ouija boards. Although one can say that there is evidence that they do, the evidence is extremely week and is made less credible by scientific experiments which show that for example blindfolding the participants stops it from working. But EcstremeVenom still refuses to consider the alternative explanations even though they are much more credible.

Originally posted by knightmeister
If I get labelled a "retard" or brainless I find myself chuckling because I know I am not , but it is frustrating because I always
suspect that much , much more is really going on underneath all this bashing.

The problem is that for a rational atheist, it is very difficult to understand the psychology that goes on in theists minds.
When someone who is clearly not brainless nor a retard posts things which any sane person would see is false then what conclusion can I come to?
Why in your opinion do so many theists claim to believe things that are obviously false even to them? Why do they invent things that appear to support their beliefs? Why do they not only lie but go to great trouble to try and promote their lies? I am yet to see such extreme behavior from atheist, and yet even you must admit that it is commonplace amongst theists.

Originally posted by twhitehead
The problem is that for a rational atheist, it is very difficult to understand the psychology that goes on in theists minds.
When someone who is clearly not brainless nor a retard posts things which any sane person would see is false then what conclusion can I come to?
Why in your opinion do so many theists claim to believe things that are obviously fa ...[text shortened]... treme behavior from atheist, and yet even you must admit that it is commonplace amongst theists.

Why in your opinion do so many theists claim to believe things that are obviously false even to them? Why do they invent things that appear to support their beliefs? Why do they not only lie but go to great trouble to try and promote their lies?WHITEY

Which theists are you refering to and what are they saying? Which lies? Are you talking about the fundies?

When someone who is clearly not brainless nor a retard posts things which any sane person would see is false then what conclusion can I come to?WHITEY

One conclusion you could come to is that it's just possible that they have discovered something that you have yet to. I know this sounds arrogant but you've either had a spiritual awakening or you haven't. If you haven't then spirituality/Christianity will look insane to you sometimes. You have no idea what they are going on about. This is not your fault in anyway but it supports my idea that it's more a case of knwing/not knowing than believing/disbelieving.

Originally posted by twhitehead
I would agree that it is evidence. However it is not the "OBJECTIVE EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE" that scotty was talking about.
I would also say that from the point of view of an atheist, it is very weak evidence as there are more plausible explanations for the phenomena.
The problem is that many theists are unwilling to consider the other explanations for the e ...[text shortened]... ll refuses to consider the alternative explanations even though they are much more credible.

I would agree that it is evidence. However it is not the "OBJECTIVE EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE" that scotty was talking about.
I would also say that from the point of view of an atheist, it is very weak evidence as there are more plausible explanations for the phenomena.
The problem is that many theists are unwilling to consider the other explanations for the evidence. WHITEY

Thank you for conceding that it is evidence. I respect you for this. There are other explanations for certain experiences and it is up to each individual to decide for themselves which best fits. This is where faith comes in in the sense that one sticks with one explanation that fits the best whilst being aware of the others. However , what seems implausible for one is plausible for another. I found your circle of time idea quite inpenetrable but that's the way you see it so fair enough. Christianity is insane , but then to me the world is insane anyway. One man's sanity is another man's insanity I guess.

What you need to accept is that theism can be a genuine position. If I were to become an Atheist it would be hypocritical and disingenuous , I would not be being true to what I am convinced of. The difference is that I understand why you are an Atheist because I was once one myself , you probably find theism a bit of a mystery though.

Originally posted by knightmeister
Which theists are you refering to and what are they saying? Which lies? Are you talking about the fundies?

Does it really matter? Or are you denying that its true? Or are you saying that there are different reasons depending on whether you are a fundie or not?

One conclusion you could come to is that it's just possible that they have discovered something that you have yet to.
Would you reach that conclusion about someone who claims to be able to speak to ghosts via an Ouija board? If not, why not?

I know this sounds arrogant but you've either had a spiritual awakening or you haven't. If you haven't then spirituality/Christianity will look insane to you sometimes. You have no idea what they are going on about. This is not your fault in anyway but it supports my idea that it's more a case of knwing/not knowing than believing/disbelieving.
So how do you for example know that it is not you who has not been awakened to the reality of Islaam? Or do you just accept that it might be so but its not your fault?

Originally posted by Agerg
Probably can't understand the rationale...not necessarily the concept of religion.

See Thread: 'Don't let hypocritical Christians ruin your life'

It's not 'follow my religion' or you'll suffer eternal torment; it's 'repent and believe in Jesus' or you'll suffer eternal torment. The point you're missing, that's causing your hostility, is that Christ's way of salvation is not man-made. Faith is produced and upheld by the power of God.

After Christianity became powerful (after followers of Christ ceased being persecuted for their faith), false religious types began to cling to the faith, having a pretend faith for worldly gain, and causing all kinds of p.r. problems for Christ down through the centuries; which no one is more angry about than God, I'm sure. These hypocritical folks obscure true faith, even make true faith obsolete in their congregations; they're easy to spot, and easy to hate. Everybody knows who they are, but they seem to be untouchable.

But I tell you what, if you think you hate these people now, you'll hate them infinitely worse when you find out they kept you from discovering Christ for yourself, a true faith rooted in the power of God and not in religion or religious pride.

That's the rationale I used seven years ago to take a closer look at what the bible said for myself. I used to be a rabid atheist and I hated pompous Christians so much that I was determined, if Christ was indeed real, that they would not keep me from knowing Him. I approached the word sincerely and discovered the reality of Christ's kingdom, repented, became born again and received the empowerment of the Holy Spirit. It was difficult to forfeit my pride, but it was worth it to find the Truth.

As a follower of Christ now, the Christians I used to hate while I was an atheist really are no less reprehensible. Actually, more so now that I know the Truth which they defame for their greed, which also causes the defamation of me and others like me who love the Truth. The point is, don't let hypocrites keep you out of contact with the Truth, which is Jesus Christ Himself, the Lord.

Originally posted by Acemaster
I'm not going to search the internet for something that I don't know how to find. Tell me what to Google search.

Why should I tell you - you made the claim!

Originally posted by Acemaster
Did the tooth fairy forgive your sins? Comfort you? Keep your from falling and killing yourself? Relieve you of pain? I doubt it.

None of those things are relevant as to whether or not the tooth fairy exists.

I didn't comfort him, or forgive his sins; does that mean I don't exist?

Originally posted by knightmeister
I disagree. If you look at what is happening here Scotty moves from talking about evidence and then drifts into talking about "proof" . It depends what context one talks about evidence. For scotty the only evidence possible is that which can constitute scientific proof , however , ace is talking about evidence nonetheless. His evidence does not wash w ...[text shortened]... ds on how we interpret the world around us and our experiences. We all see different things.

Ah, so you're going with the old, "gut feeling" defence. Very wise, but a bit last century.

Originally posted by knightmeister
I disagree. If you look at what is happening here Scotty moves from talking about evidence and then drifts into talking about "proof" . It depends what context one talks about evidence. For scotty the only evidence possible is that which can constitute scientific proof , however , ace is talking about evidence nonetheless. His evidence does not wash w ...[text shortened]... ds on how we interpret the world around us and our experiences. We all see different things.

Yes of course, but the arguments of some here place the christian god in a higher position than any other supernatural explanation.
My use of the tooth fairy is obviously facetious, but I think you could use all of the arguments you and others have with this situation.

Originally posted by knightmeister
That's not good enough if you're after scientific proof. AMMANION

And some of us are and some of us aren't. The most important thing is whether the evidence is convincing to the individual not whether it can be proved to some wider scientific community. If I offered you a) absolute scientific proof of God's existence and passionate , intimate love f ...[text shortened]... ue. It's a subtle difference. Knowing God and proving he exists are two different journeys.

That's true but you can't mix and match your arguments as you like.
If one takes your position then fine, you know god but have no proof of its existence.
However, there are some on these threads who I think would argue that their knowing god constitutes proof of its existence.
That's a whole different story.

Originally posted by knightmeister
I would agree that it is evidence. However it is not the "OBJECTIVE EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE" that scotty was talking about.
I would also say that from the point of view of an atheist, it is very weak evidence as there are more plausible explanations for the phenomena.
The problem is that many theists are unwilling to consider the other explanations for ...[text shortened]... Atheist because I was once one myself , you probably find theism a bit of a mystery though.

"Christianity is insane , but then to me the world is insane anyway."

Well, this is quite an admission from you!
Religion is insane (I prefer the word "unsane"😉, and the reason the world is insane is because there are so many bladdy religious people like you in it!

Originally posted by howardgee
[b]"Christianity is insane , but then to me the world is insane anyway."

OF coarse you are right as ever. Love your neighbor as yourself???? Love your enemies???? Whatsoever is good and pure, think on these things???? Crave righteousness and abhor sin???? Do not render evil for evil???? Forgive those who wrong you???? Turn the other cheek????

These people are obviously delusional and need locked up or even better.......nail them all to crosses. Ha, ha, ha, ha.ha!!!!!!!!

Originally posted by whodey
OF coarse you are right as ever. Love your neighbor as yourself???? Love your enemies???? Whatsoever is good and pure, think on these things???? Crave righteousness and abhor sin???? Do not render evil for evil???? Forgive those who wrong you???? Turn the other cheek????

These people are obviously delusional and need locked up or even better.......nail them all to crosses. Ha, ha, ha, ha.ha!!!!!!!!

Yes, but don't forget to smash those wicked evil babies on rocks. And gays, well, they should obviously be stoned to death. As for the firstborn, well, just don't get me started on them!

Originally posted by scottishinnz
Yes, but don't forget to smash those wicked evil babies on rocks. And gays, well, they should obviously be stoned to death. As for the firstborn, well, just don't get me started on them!

Where exactly did Christ command his followers to do this? If I recall, he saved a woman who was to be stoned under Mosaic law for commiting adultry.