The Universal Bright Woman

TYPO.

I meant to write above:

And I am not at all advocating that the church people could [not] be served as well from such warnings.

Originally posted by sonship

Okay, the word can mean "land, earth, ground, country" according to Strong's concordance. However, one must use common sense when translating words with different meanngs.

That is correct. And the "common sense" being used by some translators is this: As Jesus is referring to the prophetic words of [b]Zechariah 12:12 it is the Jewish ...[text shortened]... that the church people could be served as well from such warnings.

Now I have to stop here.[/b]

But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

Originally posted by RJHinds

Regardless of how you want to translate it, the point is that the rapture occurs after the tribulation, not before, because if this gathering together occurs after the tribulation, then the rapture of those remaining can not occur before the tribulation because of 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17) explains when the "catching up" or the "rapture" occurs.

Originally posted by RJHinds
Some believe that Revelation 12:1 is how the constellation Virgo appeared at the time of the birth of Christ, not the crucifixion.

But if we use the dream of Joseph in Genesis 37:9-10 to interpret John's vision in Revelation 12, the sun and the moon represent the father and mother of the twelve children of Israel represented by the twelve stars. The women ...[text shortened]... wished to destroy the Son and the seed of the woman, is represented by the dragon in the vision.

Originally posted by sonship
[quote] Regardless of how you want to translate it, the point is that the rapture occurs after the tribulation, not before, because if this gathering together occurs after the tribulation, then the rapture of those remaining can not occur before the tribulation because of 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17) explains when the "catching up" or the "rapture" occurs.
[/q ...[text shortened]... taken at its end would be the rapture of those [b]"who are living, who are left remaining." [/b]

Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues...
For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off,
And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!
And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.

Originally posted by RJHinds

I have already given you a reference that the believers will go through tribulation according to Jesus. Here again in Revelation, the church is said to go through tribulation.

Message to the church of Smyrna:

Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

(Revelation 2:10 KJV)

You mention Revelation 3:10 as a reference you believe excludes the church from the tribulation. However, it says nothing about the tribulation.

Message to the church of Philadelphia:

Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.


(Revelation 3:10 KJV)

I believe this HOUR of temptation is NOT speaking of the time of GREAT TRIBULATION.

Simply looking at the CONTEXT and observing that the CHURCH is going through tribulation and has thus far KEPT the word of God with patience waiting for the coming of Jesus, this hour of temptation or trial probably refers to something else.

Here is a possibility:

And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues...
For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off,
And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!
And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.


(Revelation 18:4,17-19 KJV)

When Jesus returns after the tribulation, He comes to resurrect the dead and change and rapture those remaing alive; then he administers the vengeance and wrath of God. However, the believers are not appointed to receive the wrath of God.

Originally posted by sonship

I have already given you a reference that the believers will go through tribulation according to Jesus. Here again in Revelation, the church is said to go through tribulation.

You don't seem to be talking to me.
What does that have to do with anything I taught ?

Of course if some saints are taken out of the hour of trial [b](Rev ...[text shortened]... ul saints will be rewarded to be taken out of the hour of world wide trial as the Lord promised.

And those in First Thessalonians 4:17 who are "living, who are left remaining" have passed through the great tribulation. But any who were living but who were NOT left remaining were already raptured.

Originally posted by RJHinds
I mentioned the the verse in Revelation 2 to point out that there is a different word for "tribulation" used there than the word you seem to think means "tribulation" in Revelation 3:10.

Let me remind you that revelation 6 begins the tribulation with the appearance of the Antichrist.

You say:
[quote] And those in First Thessalonians 4:17 who are "li ...[text shortened]... m being raptured. It appears they are given a seal of protection to continue through to the end.

I mentioned the the verse in Revelation 2 to point out that there is a different word for "tribulation" used there than the word you seem to think means "tribulation" in Revelation 3:10.

Let me remind you that revelation 6 begins the tribulation with the appearance of the Antichrist.

Originally posted by RJHinds
I mentioned the the verse in Revelation 2 to point out that there is a different word for "tribulation" used there than the word you seem to think means "tribulation" in Revelation 3:10.

Let me remind you that revelation 6 begins the tribulation with the appearance of the Antichrist.

You say:
[quote] And those in First Thessalonians 4:17 who are "li ...[text shortened]... m being raptured. It appears they are given a seal of protection to continue through to the end.

This is simply not true. This 1 Thessalonians 4:17 is were the term "rapture" meaning "caught up to heaven" came from.

Unless you are referring to Jesus and maybe Enoch and Elijah as the firstfruits that were caught up to heaven,

there is no mention of any firstfruits that are raptured before Jesus sending his angels to gather His elect, which takes place after the tribulation of those days.

The 144,000 out of the 12 tribes of Israel who are sealed by the angels takes place after the fifth seal of Revelation 6 reveals the martyred believers that have already gone through tribulation. These 144,000 are later identified as firstfuits, but they are no mention of them being raptured. It appears they are given a seal of protection to continue through to the end.

Originally posted by sonship

The fact that he named his son "When he [DIES] it will come" - Methuselah suggests that his awareness of coming divine judgment and bringing up a child were closely related.

Originally posted by sonship

This is simply not true. This 1 Thessalonians 4:17 is were the term "rapture" meaning "caught up to heaven" came from.

The word means a kind of ecstatic joy or happiness.

It is not a word in the Bible. Now the definition itself should tell you something. Not all people would be ecstatic to have the Lord Jesus suddenly catch them up. ...[text shortened]... , are to be seen in the taking of [b]Elijah and the attitude of the remaining Elisha.[/b]

Alex Jones Exposes Rapture Theory

YouTube

So the cause of the great tribulation is clearly the expulsion of Satan and his angels out of a heavenly realm they have been occupying to be limited to the earth's surface.

"Therefore be glad, O heavens and those who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea because the devil has come down to you and has great rage, knowing that he has only a short time." (Revelation 12:12)

This short time of the devil's great rage on earth would not happen EXCEPT the corporate man-child be raptured to God causing the good angels to drive Satan down.

"And she brought forth a son, a man-child, who is to shepherd all the nations with an iron rod; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne. (v.5)

And the woman fled into the wilderness where she has a place there prepared by God so that they might nourish her there a thousand two hundred and sixty days. (v.6)

And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels went to war with the dragon. And the dragon warred and his angels. And they did not prevail, neither was their place found any longer in heaven. (vs.7,8)

And the great dragon was cast down, the ancient serpent, he who is called the Devil and Satan, he who deceives the whole earth; he was cast to the earth, and hi angels were cast down with him." (v.9)

As we can clearly see the sequence:

1.) The man-child is raptured.

2.) The Universal Bright Woman is persecuted by the dragon and nourished by God for "a thousand two hundred and sixty days."

3.) Satan and angels limitation causes the great "WOE to the earth and the sea" because he has come down in great rage knowing he only has a short time.

The short time of "one thousand two hundred and sixty days" is the second half of the 70th week of Daniel - the great tribulation. The seven years the Antichrist makes a covenant with Israel is broken midway. The second half of the 7 years is the great tribulation.

But the main point is that the CATALYST for that event was exactly the pre- great tribulation rapture of the man-child. If the man-child is not raptured BEFORE all these happenings there will be no casting down of Satan and thus no great tribulation.


The "man-child" is a a "THEY" (vs.10,11) from out of the whole Universal Bright Woman who overcome Satan and his continuous accusation against the saints of God.

It is a remnant and not the entire church. So a remnant of overcoming Christians will be the cause of the events which trigger the great tribulation to commence. Traditional mainstream Christianity misses this important point entirely.

Revelation 12:6 and 12 define the time of the great tribulation.

Affirmation and Critique magazine rightly informs:
http://affcrit.com/pdfs/2006/02/06_02_wr.pdf

When Christ returns at the end of this age, He will judge rebellious mankind and clear up the negative situation on the earth. At the same time, Satan will be cast down out of heaven, and in his anger he will persecute God’s people and bring destruction to the earth (Rev. 12:9, 17). This period of time is foretold in the prophecy of the seventy weeks in Daniel 9:24-27. In particular, the last of the seventy weeks signifies the final seven years of this age. At the end of this age, Antichrist will make a firm covenant with the Jews for one week, that is, for seven years. In the middle of the week he will break the covenant, destroy the worship of God, blaspheme God, persecute His people, and destroy the holy city, Jerusalem. This second half of the week is the final three and a half years of this age, which is also known as “a time and times and half a time” ([Dan.]7:25; Rev. 12:14), “a thousand two hundred and sixty days” (v. 6), and “forty-two months” (11:2; 13:5). Concerning this period, the Lord Jesus said, “At that time there will be great tribulation, such as has not occurred from the
beginning of the world until now, nor shall by any means ever occur” (Matt. 24:21).

Originally posted by sonship
So the cause of the great tribulation is clearly the expulsion of Satan and his angels out of a heavenly realm they have been occupying to be limited to the earth's surface.

[b]"Therefore be glad, O heavens and those who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea because the devil has come down to you and has great rage, knowing that he has only a sh ...[text shortened]... bulation to commence. Traditional mainstream Christianity misses this important point entirely.