The Universal Bright Woman

The rejoicing in heaven at the arrival of the man-child is a rejoicing at the victory of Satan by human beings. There is no way this could be a teaching of demons. Rather demons would fight to keep human beings from knowing that they, the evil angels, and Satan could be overcome.

"And I heard a loud voice in heaven saying, Now has come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ, ..."

As if demons would want human beings to know this!

"... for the accuser of our brothers has been cast down, who accuses them before our God day and night."

As if demons would want us to know that their leader Satan who accuses God to man and man to God day and night has been finally cast out.

The sheer stupidity of suggesting that the rapture of the man-child is a doctrine of demons is staggering.

"And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the world of their testimony, and they loved not their soul-life even unto death."

These are the nuclear weapons of man to destroy the hold of Satan over his soul. These are the secrets to victory in Jesus Christ. There is no way the announcement of these truths is a doctrine of demons as someone suggested.

Rather it is more likely the desire of Satan and his hordes that the church NOT know that overcomers being raptured to God and to His throne would mean the expulsion of the Devil out of the heavens.

RJHinds again, who says the pre-great triublation rapture is a doctrine of demons.

The woman in labor, the nation of Israel under Roman oppression, gives birth to a male child - Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

2. Satan the Dragon attemps to destroy Jesus by crucifixion. However, the Son is caught up to the throne of God in heaven.

3. The Dragon persecutes the woman, the nation of israel.

4. The Dragon goes off to make war with rest of her offspring, Christians.

The 70th week of Daniel ended in 34 A.D. I would not count on the Antichrist making any covenant with Israel.

In the book of Revelation sometimes God's providential sovereignty is stressed. His transcendence over time and His predestination is revealed.

IE - " ... And those who dwell on the earth, those whose names are not written from the foundation of the world in the book of life, will marvel when they see the beast ..." (Rev. 17:8b)

Here God's transcendence over time is indicated by the revelation that some whose names are not recorded in the book of life even from the foundation of the world.

IE. "And all those dwelling on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name is not written in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain from the foundation of the world." (Rev. 13:8)

But here again we see that God will preserve from the multitude of Israel some marked out ones do arrive through the great tribulation of His own sovereign predestination-

"And after this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, so that no wind would blow on the earth nor on the sea nor on any tree.

And I saw another Angel ascending from the rising of the sun, having the seal of the living God; and He cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom authority was given to harm the earth and the sea.

Saying, Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees until we seal the slaves of our God upon their foreheads." (Rev. 7:1-3)

It goes on to speak of 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel.
(Except the tribe of Dan is omitted which is another whole discussion)

It mentions here not the Lamb or the Father (comp Rev. 14:1) as pertaining to New Testament salvation. But it mentions "the seal of the living God" probably more related to the Old Testament covenanting God.

The seed of the persecuted woman is said to be those who keep the commandments of God and those who have the testimony of Jesus (Rev. 12:17).

The TWO groups are mentioned also here:

Revelation 14:12 - "Here is the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus."

I believe that the saints are both the Christians here left in to pass through the great tribulation and also those Jews preserved, reserved, and sovereignly set aside by God to pass through the GT and come out inheriting the Messianic kingdom.

The 144,000 sealed of the twelve tribes in Revelation 7 is not the same group as the 144,000 Firstfruits raptured to heaven in Revelation 14.

From Affirmation and Critique

The Scriptures clearly promise that at the time of Christ’s coming, Israel as God’s covenanted people will turn to Him and be saved (Dan. 2:1; Zech. 13:8-9; Rom. 11:26-27). This requires that a remnant of the Jews remain on the earth as the recipients of God’s promises in the Old Testament. Until Israel is restored, the church will have borne the testimony of the Lord on the earth

The Universal Bright Woman who is persecuted after the rapture of the man-child consists of both Israelites under God's preservation and the New Testament Christians.

The presence of believers in the tribulation can be seen in several passages. Revelation 12:17 says, “The dragon became angry with the woman and went away to make war with the rest of her seed, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus.” Those who keep the commandments of God are the sealed Israelites (7:1-8) who will keep the commandments during the great tribulation, including the first and second commandments, which forbid the worship of a false god and the erection of an idol (13:4, 14-15). However, those who have the testimony of Jesus must be New Testament believers. A passage parallel to 12:17 is 14:12, which says, “Here is the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.” The testimony of Jesus in 12:7 is the faith of Jesus in 14:12. The faith of Jesus is possessed uniquely by New Testament believers for their justification and life in Christ and is in contrast to the works of the law, which characterize Israel of the old covenant (Rom. 3:22, 26; Gal. 2:16; Phil. 3:9). Concerning the “faith of Jesus,” Govett says, “This may mean either their belief in Jesus, or the articles of faith delivered by Jesus. Either way it seems to prove, that there are those once members of the church of Christ still on the earth

Originally posted by sonship
The rejoicing in heaven at the arrival of the [b]man-child is a rejoicing at the victory of Satan by human beings. There is no way this could be a teaching of demons. Rather demons would fight to keep human beings from knowing that they, the evil angels, and Satan could be overcome.

"And I heard a loud voice in heaven saying, Now has come the sa ...[text shortened]... eing raptured to God and to His throne would mean the expulsion of the Devil out of the heavens.

Originally posted by sonship
[b] Revelation 12:1,2

And a great sign was seen in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon underneath her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars;

And she was with child, and she cried out, travailing in birth and being in pain to bring forth."

Three light giving aspects of this woman reveal that she is a totality of spi ...[text shortened]... l the ages.

This woman becomes the New Jerusalem in chapters 21 and 22 of Revelation.[/b]

Originally posted by Soothfast
M'kay, so, thus is it written and thus shall it be that a knocked-up million-mile-tall momma who's so fat she can wear the sun like a Muumuu is going to appear in the heavens. And to top it off, her water's going to break whilst she's standing on the moon wearing a fold-out paper Burger King crown?

Good god, I love that old-time religion!

Originally posted by sonship
RJHinds again, who says the pre-great triublation rapture is a doctrine of demons.

The woman in labor, the nation of Israel under Roman oppression, gives birth to a male child - Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

Which do you think is more likely the demons would prefer the Christian church believe?

1.) The only spiritual laboring g ...[text shortened]...
The last three and one half years of that last week will be the time of the great tribulation.

Daniel 9:26-27 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

26 Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined.

27 And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate.”

Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing. And He will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering.

And the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined. And on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate.”

Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God. Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things? And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way. Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.

Originally posted by RJHinds

I was referring to the pre-tribulation rapture as a doctrine of demons.

Originally posted by sonship
I read your discussion of Daniel. Needless to say some Bible teachers have put forth different ideas how to interpret Daniel's prophecy.

I will not go into much of Daniel right now.
But instead I will comment on this:

[b]I was referring to the pre-tribulation rapture as a doctrine of demons.

The article of "That Raptur ...[text shortened]... istians but [b]wheat would not, I think, is suspect. Its probably not a good interpretation.[/b]

If I understood you, you said the Sixth Seal represents the beginning of the Great Tribulation. Yet you say the First Seal reveals the conquering of Antichrist on a white horse.

But before these two Horsemen can finish their ride, a Black Horse and Rider is unleashed that is another demonic spirit of Islam with the intentions of toppling the economic systems of the Capitalist Christians and Jews by attacking their commerce. All this leads to economic hardship for those not having the ability to buy and sell throught the mark of the beast empire of Islam. However, they are not allowed to harm the servants of God, symbolized by the oil and wine.

Then finally, the Pale Green Horse and rider represents the full release of the Islamic demon spirits to wreak havoc in the Great tribulation period with all four horsemen riding with the intent to conquer Israel and the whole world with every means possible. Satan's wrath is now fully unleashed at this time through the Islamic beast empire.

When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.

I looked when He broke [b]the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood; and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind. The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains; and they *said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

"I will display wonders in the sky and on the earth, Blood, fire and columns of smoke.
"The sun will be turned into darkness And the moon into blood Before the great and awesome day of the LORD comes.

“But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

Jesus promises to fulfill ultimately this promise in Matthew24:31 - "And He will send His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His chosen together from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other end."

Deut. 30:3-5 "Then Jehovah your God will turn your captivity and be compassionate to you, and He will turn and GATHER you from all the peoples among whom Jehovah your God has scattered you.

If any on you have been driven out to the ENDS OF HEAVEN, from there will Jehovah your God gather you and from there will He take you. And Jehovah your God will bring ou into the land which your fathers possessed, and you will possess it; and He will do good for you and will multiply you more than He did your father."

Isaiah 43:5-8 "Do not fear, because I am with you; I will bring your seed FROM THE EAST, AND GATHER YOU FROM THE WEST. I will say to the north, Give them up, And to the south, Do not keep them back. Bring My sons FROM AFAR, And My daughters FROM THE END OF THE EARTH, Everyone who is called by My name, Whom I have created, formed, and even made for My glory.

Bring out the people who are blind yet have eyes, and those who are dear yet have ears."

Isaiah 49:8b-13 - "And I will preserve You and give You for a covenant of the people, To restore the land, to apportion the desolate inheritances, to say to the prisoners, Come forth, To say to those who are in darkness, Show yourselves.

They will not hunger or thirst; Neither the scorching heat nor the sun will strike them; For He who has compassion on them will lead them And will guide them beside the springs of water; And I will make all My mountains into a road, And my highways will be raised up. Indeed, THESE WILL COME FROM A DISTANCE, And indeed these will come FROM THE NORTH AND THE WEST And these from the land of the Sinim. Give a ringing shout, O heavens, and exult, O earth, And break forth into shouting, O mountains; For Jehovah has comforted His people and will have compassion on His afflicted ones."

Isaiah 49:22-26 - "Thus says the Lord Jehovah, Indeed, I will lift up My hand to the nations, And unto the peoples I will lift up My banner; And they will bring your sons in their arms, And they will carry your daughters on their shoulders.

And kings will be your foster fathers; and their princesses will be those who nurse you; They will bow down to you with their faces toward the earth and lick the dust of your feet; And you will know that I am Jehovah; Those who wait on Me will not be ashamed.

Can the booty be taken from the strong man, Or the lawful captives be delivered? Surely, thus says Jehovah, even the captive may be taken from the strong man, And the booty may be released from the tyrant; For I will strive with those who strive with you, And I will save your children;

And I will feed those who oppress you with their own flesh; And they will be drunk with their own blood as with sweet wine; Then all flesh will know That I am Jehovah your Savior And your Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob."

Isaiah 51:11 - "Therefore the ransomed of Jehovah will return and will come to Zion with a ringing shout, And eternal joy will be upon their heads.

They will lay hold on gladness and joy, And sorrow and sighing will flee away."

Isaiah 56:8 - "The Lord Jehovah WHO GATHERS THE OUTCASTS OF ISRAEL, declares; Yet WILL I GATHER others to Him besides those gathered to Him already.

Isaiah 60:4 - "Lift up your eyes around you and see; THEY ALL GATHER TOGETHER; they come to you; You sons WILL COME FROM FAR AWAY, And your daughters on the hip."

Isaiah 62:10-12 - "Go through, go through the gates; Prepare the way for the people; Cast up, cast up the highway; Free it of stones; Raise up a standard for the people.

See, Jehovah has announced TO THE END OF THE EARTH: Say to thge daughters of Zion, Your salvation is now coming; Now His reward is with Him and His recompense before Him, And they will call them, The holy people, The redeemed of Jehovah;

And you will be called, Sought after! A city not forsaken!"

Isaiah 27:13 - "AND IN THAT DAY A GREAT TRUMPET WILL BE BLOWN, And the ones lost in the land of Assyria will come, As well as the outcasts in the land of Egypt, And they will worship Jehovah on the holy mountain in Jerusalem."

Neither Matthew 24:31 or First Thessalonians 4:15-18 can be used to prove that no saints of Christ will be raptured before the great tribulation.

Now more OT confimation that Christ intends not only to rapture those who are alive and left remaining of the church, but also to gather of the elect of Israel He has ordained to become Jews of the Messianic kingdom.

Ezekiel 34:13 - "And I will bring them out from the peoples and gather them from the countries AND BRING THEM INTO THEIR OWN LAND , and I will feed them in the mountains of Israel by the streams and in all the inhabited places of the land."

Ezekiel 37:21 - "And you shall say to them, Thus says the Lord Jehovah, I am about to take the children of Israel from among the nations, where they have gone, AND I WILL GATHER THEM FROM ALL AROUND and bring and bring them into their own land."

Ezekiel 28:25 - "Thus says the Lord Jehovah, WHEN I HAVE GATHERED THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL FROM THE PEOPLES among whom they are scattered and have been sanctified in them in the sight of the nations, they will dwell in IN THEIR OWN LAND which I gave to My servant Jacob."

Luke 21:36 - "But be watchful at every time, beseeching that you would prevail to escape all these things which are about to happen and stand before the Son of Man."

Originally posted by sonship

Revelation 14 shows the [Firstfruits] of God's crops standing in heaven, having been raptured before the evil activities of Antichrist (vs 1-5), [then] the activities of Antichrist during the great tribulation (vs.8 - 11). Finally at the end of the GT we see the rapture of the Harvest or majority of the church (vs. 14-16).

Originally posted by sonship
Neither [b]Matthew 24:31 or First Thessalonians 4:15-18 can be used to prove that no saints of Christ will be raptured before the great tribulation.

Now more OT confimation that Christ intends not only to rapture those who are alive and left remaining of the church, but also to gather of the elect of Israel He has ordained to become Jews of th ...[text shortened]... scape all these things which are about to happen and stand before the Son of Man." [/b] [/quote][/b]