10 Sep 14
Originally posted by SoothfastPutting two and two together, it shouldn't take too much analysis to determine the first letter stands for Grow.
If I was a nine-year-old I might know what GTFU is supposed to stand for, along with five hundred other texting acronyms, but alas it is not so.
Anyway, old bean, I think your mind has wandered into the gutter far in advance of mine. 😉
And it's not an acronym.
10 Sep 14
Originally posted by FreakyKBHI long ago learned that putting "too much analysis" into a Freaky post is an even bigger waste of time than Bible study. So STFU and GTFO.
Putting two and two together, it shouldn't take too much analysis to determine the first letter stands for Grow.
And it's not an acronym.
11 Sep 14
1 edit
Originally posted by RJHindsYou have gone too far, Mr. RJhinds! You think you're too bold enough to accuse a brother? Reading some negative sites from the internet about Witness Lee that he is a cult leader. Do you think their research is fair and adequate without bias? Take a look for yourself into his writings and the defense. But anyway, you don't want to get yourself into it because you are too proud of yourself!
The Witness Lee cult is not as bad as many others.
[quote] A Christian cult is “a group that deviates from the doctrines and practices of historic Christianity and has an inordinate loyalty to one leader, whose beliefs are not found in Scripture.
[b]Seven Characteristics of a Cult
1. Oppose critical thinking versus demanding that people thin ...[text shortened]... -you-were-in-one
A Cult does not necessarily have to demonstrate all of these charateristics.
Many students of the Bible err because they have confidence in their own mental capacities to understand the divine revelation. As Watchman Nee wrote in 1927:
In Philippians 3:3 the apostle mentioned "confidence in the flesh." "Confidence" in the original text is "belief." He said that he himself did not "believe in the flesh." The greatest work of the flesh is self-confidence! Since one thinks he is able, he does not need to trust in the Holy Spirit. Christ crucified is the wisdom of God, but a believer trusts in his own wisdom. He can read the Bible, preach the Bible, hear the Word, and believe in the Word; however, all of these are done through the power of his own mind, and he does not think that he absolutely must ask for the Holy Spirit to teach him. Many people believe they have received all the truth, even though what they have is something which they have received from others and from their own searching and what they have is more of man than of God! Furthermore, they do not have a teachable heart that is willing to wait on God and to let Him reveal His truth in His light.
Pride in our education or abilities is a major obstacle to receiving the revelation contained in the Word of God. What is needed is a proper humility, as Witness Lee explains:
Being proud of your education will hinder you from knowing the Scriptures. No matter how educated you are, you must humbly tell the Lord that you are a teachable little child and that in your whole being you are utterly empty. You should be able to say, "Lord, although I have three Ph.D.’s, I know nothing. I am not filled up by my education. I am empty in my spirit, in my mind, and in my whole being." Many highly educated professional people are filled to the brim. For this reason, even after they are saved, they are unable to receive anything from the Word. Their pride has usurped them.
Stop persecuting your fellow members of the Body of Christ!
11 Sep 14
Originally posted by Kevin Lee Poracan1. Oppose critical thinking versus demanding that people think for themselves: Cult members must accept what the cult leader believes without ever challenging their doctrines. They do not want their members to think critically for themselves.
You have gone too far, Mr. RJhinds! You think you're too bold enough to accuse a brother? Reading some negative sites from the internet about Witness Lee that he is a cult leader. Do you think their research is fair and adequate without bias? Take a look for yourself into his writings and the defense. But anyway, you don't want to get yourself into ...[text shortened]... rd. Their pride has usurped them.
Stop persecuting your fellow members of the Body of Christ!
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11 Sep 14
4 edits
Originally posted by RJHinds
The male child is mentioned in verse 5 and there is no "THEY" or "THEM" or "THEIR" mentioned until "THEY" is used in verse 8, which refers back to the dragon and his angels in verse 7 about the war in heaven and the victory of Michael and his angels over the dragon and his angels.
Revelation 12:10-11 is rejoicing of the believers over this defeat in heaven of the accuser of "our brethren" who are the "THEM" and "THEY" and "THEIR" and does not refer to the male child Jesus of verse 5.
The whole vision is a SIGN -
"And a great SIGN was seen in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun... etc. etc. (v.1)
And she was with child, and she cried out , travailing in birth and being in pain to bring forth. (v.2)
"And another sign was seen in heaven, and behold, there was a great red dragon, having seven heads ... etc. etc. etc. (v.3)
"etc. etc. ... And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to bring forth, so that when she brings forth he might devour her child. (v.4)
Christ as ONE OF US human beings took the lead to overcome the Devil.
You fail to see that the SIGN of the man-child points to those who are one with Christ - "more than conquerors" (Rom. 8:37) - those who overcome, overcomers.
The male child is mentioned in verse 5 and there is no "THEY" or "THEM" or "THEIR" mentioned until "THEY" is used in verse 8, which refers back to the dragon and his angels in verse 7 about the war in heaven and the victory of Michael and his angels over the dragon and his angels.
So what?
The the rest of her children are not mentioned until verse 17.
"And the dragon became angry with the woman and went away to make war with the rest of her seed, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus."
The Woman PLUS the children as the rest of her seed, do not constitute two entities. Rather the WOMAN is composed of all her children, including the child brought forth called "man-child" .
I won't argue with you indefinitely.
If you don't believe the truth of the overcomers as a part of and within the Universal Bright Woman, that is just your shortage.
Maybe you are just to use to living in defeat to have any faith that you could be among those who overcome. Being built into a proper local church life would remedy this.
Anyway, SINCE in the next chapter 13 it says that the saints on earth are overcome by the dragon, the ones who overcome in 12:11 cannot be them at the time of the announcement - "And THEY overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb ... etc."
The "THEY" being the saints left on earth simply doesn't make sense for -
"And permission was given to him [Antichrist] to make war with the saints and to overcome THEM ..." (13:7)
And THAT is the reason for thier WOE while those who just were transferred do dwell in heaven have not WOE but REJOICING .
"Therefore be glad, O heavens and those who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea because the devil has come down to you and has great rage, knowing that he has only a short time."
TO the overcomers raptured to heaven - Gladness, the kingdom, the power and salvation and authority of God's Christ.
To the rest of the woman's seed left on earth - WOE and the tribulation of Antichrist's temporary short time of overcoming them in warfare.
However, in chapter 15 we see the martyred saints who were of those left on earth, are those who overcome as the man-child did .
Revelation 15:2-4 - "And I saw as it were a glassy sea mingled with fire and those who come away victorious from the beast and from his image and from the number of his name standing on the glassy sea, having harps of God.
The man-child is a sign standing for the EARLY overcomers.
The saints standing on the glassy sea mingled with fire are the LATE overcomers.
It should not be a concern that a entity like a man-child would signify a corporate group of people. The Woman herself stands for a corporate group of people.
And so do the golden lampstands in chapters 2 and 3 stand as a symbol for a group of people.
And so does the New Jerusalem as a city and a bride stand as a symbol of a group of people.
For that matter so does the Harlot stand as a symbol of a group of people.
So it should be no unusual matter that the "man-child" as a sign be latter spoken of as "THEY".
Since a GROUP will indeed also shepherd the nations you have no strong case.
"And he who OVERCOMES and he who keeps My works until the end, to him I will give authority over the nations [like the man-child] and he will shepherd them with an iron rod, [like the man-child] ... etc. etc. " (Rev. 2:26,27a)
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11 Sep 14
1 edit
Originally posted by RJHindsYour full of idiocy.
1. [b]Oppose critical thinking versus demanding that people think for themselves: Cult members must accept what the cult leader believes without ever challenging their doctrines. They do not want their members to think critically for themselves.[/b]
First of all there is such a thing as someone knowing what they are talking about.
Secondly, Paul exhorted the churches to think the same thing and be in one accord by the experience of Christ.
"If there is therefore any encouragement in Christ, if any consolation of love, if any fellowship of spirit, if any tenderheartedness and compassions,
Make my joy full, that you think the same thing, having the same loive, joined in soul, thinking the one thing." (Phil. 2:1,2)
How come Paul was not also a leader of a cult "demanding that people think for themselves"?
You've been in the dark so long that you're afraid of the light.
"Now I beseech you, brothers, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be attuned in the same mind and in the same opinion." (1 Cor. 1:10)
How come you don't accuse Paul of being a cult leader not wanting the brothers and sisters in Corinth to think for themselves?
Why would not enjoying Christ, experiencing Christ, living Christ have as a byproduct that people think alike on some important things ?
It seems that the one parroting like a robot what you heard some men say is YOU. You regurgitate some tired old long debunked slanders like you never has an original thought since you became an adult.
Your stuff comes verbatim from some websites criticizing Witness Lee.
Besides I have both taken thoughtful questions to Witness Lee when he was with us, by word of mouth AND by letter.
And Lee ALWAYS urged us to believe things because we could SEE it in the Bible for ourselves and not just because he said it.
11 Sep 14
4 edits
Originally posted by sonshipLet us look at what I posted again:
[quote] The male child is mentioned in verse 5 and there is no "THEY" or "THEM" or "THEIR" mentioned until "THEY" is used in verse 8, which refers back to the dragon and his angels in verse 7 about the war in heaven and the victory of Michael and his angels over the dragon and his angels.
Revelation 12:10-11 is rejoicing of the believers over this defeat ...[text shortened]... epherd them with an iron rod, [like the man-child] ... etc. etc. " (Rev. 2:26,27a) [/b]
Revelation 12:10-11 is rejoicing of the believers over this defeat in heaven of the accuser of "our brethren" who are the "THEM" and "THEY" and "THEIR" and does not refer to the male child Jesus of verse 5.
Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying,
“Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of "our brethren" has been thrown down, he who accuses "them" before our God day and night. And "they" overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of "their" testimony, and "they" did not love "their" life even when faced with death.
Revelation 12:10-11 New American Standard Bible (NASB)[/b]
It should be clear that "them, they, and their" refers to "our brethren" from an honest reading of the text without any preconceived notions.
Who is our brethren? Here is the answer:
When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.
(Revelation 6:9-11 NASB)
Did you notice "them, they, their" and "brethren"?
Here are the whole bunch of "servants and brethren" in white robes again:
And I heard the number of those who were sealed, one hundred and forty-four thousand sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:
After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands; and they cry out with a loud voice, saying,
“Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.” And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures; and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, saying,
“Amen, blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might, be to our God forever and ever. Amen.”
Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?” I said to him, “My lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
(Revelation 7:4, 9-14 NASB)
The rest of her children mentioned in Revelation 12:17 are the 144,000 from the tribes of Israel (the woman).
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11 Sep 14
2 edits
Originally posted by RJHinds
Let us look at what I posted again:
[b]Revelation 12:10-11 is rejoicing of the believers over this defeat in heaven of the accuser of "our brethren" who are the "THEM" and "THEY" and "THEIR" and does not refer to the male child Jesus of verse 5.
Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying,
“Now the salvation, and the power, and the king ...[text shortened]... so.[/b]
(Revelation 6:9-11 NASB)
Did you notice "them, they, their" and "brethren"?[/b]
When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.
These are part of the man-child.
Where WERE they? They were in Paradise under the earth. They were beneath the altar - a symbol for being in Paradise under the earth.
When they man-child goes up in rapture, these overcomers who were underneath the altar in Paradise, in Abraham's Bosom, will be raptured before the great tribulation - before the one thousand two hundred and sixty days.
The very passage you think denies the essence and meaning of the man-child establishes the validity of our interpretation.
" and they loved not their soul-life even unto death."
Overcomers of the past who had died and were as souls underneath the altar seen in the fifth seal constitue the man-child.
Of course they are also part of the Universal Bright Woman.
The overcomers LIVING at the time are depicted as the Firstfruits before the Harvest in chapter 14.
But the overcomers who died WERE under the earth underneath the altar. In chapter 12 they have been RAPTURED up to God and His throne.
11 Sep 14
1 edit
Originally posted by sonshipNot so.
[quote] When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” ...[text shortened]... the earth underneath the altar. In chapter 12 they have been RAPTURED up to God and His throne.
“These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
(Revelation 7:14 NASB)
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11 Sep 14
1 edit
Originally posted by RJHindsRevelation 7:14 is an inserted vision which has another purpose.
Not so.
[b]“These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
(Revelation 7:14 NASB)[/b]
The souls underneath the altar are the deceased overcoming ones of the past. And I cannot yet imagine how you think 7:14 proves that these ones in the Fifth Seal cannot be raptured as the man-child collective before the great tribulation.
11 Sep 14
Originally posted by sonshipIt specifically states that they came out of the great tribulation and we know that the catching up or rapture comes after the tribulation, not before.
[b]Revelation 7:14 is an inserted vision which has another purpose.
The souls underneath the altar are the deceased overcoming ones of the past. And I cannot yet imagine how you think 7:14 proves that these ones in the Fifth Seal cannot be raptured as the man-child collective before the great tribulation.[/b]