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12 Apr 19
You have already bragged for us. That's what I am asking about. If there is no perceivable substance to shore up your boasts, and you know that, then just admit it and this topic is over. If there is perceivable substance to shore up your boasts, then what is it?
What is the evidence that you are able to perceive anything about the reality of God ?
What is the substance to you boasting that you use to be a Christian?
When substance is sought you quickly bow out and slip away from the subject.
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12 Apr 19
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Do you have any way of proving to anyone here - and I don't mean things like you post a lot of words about your religion or you copy paste copious amounts of material written by other people - that there is "the Holy Spirit confirming in you also that Christ is supplying His life into your innermost being"?
Do you have any proof that behind you copious words and eloquent whining there is any intention at all to receive any indication of there being God?
Or do you have evidence that you are even honestly objectively curious about the possibility of God being rather than you FMF being the supreme being ?
12 Apr 19
@sonship saidNeither of these counter-questions provides the evidence I am asking you for.
Do you have any proof that behind you copious words and eloquent whining there is any intention at all to receive any indication of there being God?
Or do you have evidence that you are even honestly objectively curious about the possibility of God being rather than you FMF being the supreme being ?
12 Apr 19
@sonship saidTell me what I should be able to perceive in your demeanour or your behaviour that would represent evidence supporting the reality of the claims that you make about yourself ~ and about "Jesus flowing through" you, and about you "becoming like Jesus". What is the evidence in YOUR mind?
What is the evidence that you are able to perceive anything about the reality of God ?
12 Apr 19
1 edit
@sonship saidI don't "boast" about it. I was a Catholic until about 15 years ago. No "boasting" is involved.
What is the substance to you boasting that you use to be a Christian?
I am not making any claims about how a supernatural being is flowing through me or how am I am becoming like a supernatural being.
These seem to me like "boasts" but the only reason we are using the words "boasting" and "boast" is because you introduced them into this conversation in reference to the claims you make about yourself.
I am not asking you to "boast". I am asking you for evidence to support your claims about yourself.
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12 Apr 19
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@Ghost-of-a-Duke
I am going back over some of these posts earlier since the latter ones seem to be degenerating on the topic.
"He (Jesus) shines as the bright Morning Star." (Witness Lee).
"I (Jesus) am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star.” (Rev)
“How you (Satan) have fallen from heaven, O morning star." (Isaiah).
Curious indeed. I wonder if the attributing of 'morning star' to Satan was an allegorical attempt to show how far he had fallen away from God. (Though of course, Isaiah was written many centuries before Revelation).
The dawn of which Lucifer is called the of is the dawn of the creation of the universe.
The dawn to which Jesus is referred to as the Morning Star is the dawn of the "new creation".
There is an old creation.
And there is a new creation.
In the old creation the arch-angel who became Satan was the brightest creature.
The new creation is totally related to the Savior Jesus Christ and begins with God imparting His life INTO man.
If anyone is in Christ there is a new creation ..." (See 2 Cor. 5:17)
This is the "singularity" of the new creation - Christ imparted into man and being one with man.
Christ is the beginning of the new creation. Concerning the church Christ is "the beginning" the firstborn from the dead.
And He is the Head of the Body, the church, He is the beginning, the Firstborn from the dead, ..." (Colossians 1:18)
No one said the Bible is ALWAYS easy to understand.
There is a creation which is without God being joined to man.
Satan was originally the luminary of this old creation.
There is a new creation from the resurrection of Christ from the dead.
In this He is the beginning and the firstborn from the dead.
Christ is the Morning Star of this new creation. And this begins with God living in man. It culminates in Him creating ALL THING new in Revelation 21 and 22.
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and teh first earth passed away, and the sea is no more. (Rev. 21:1)
Grasp this. This new heaven and new earth, this new creation has its nuclues, its singularity in Christ being imparted into men of the old creation.
when their full maturity of ALL involved reach the culmination they are manifested as the sons of God and the creation is free and liberated into the glory they spearhead in the new universe.
Again God, after every single saved one is perfected and built up together into His corporate Bride and Wife, creates with them ALL things new.
And He who sits on the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And HE said, Write, for these words are faithful and true." (Rev. 21:5)
So there can be TWO references to something like morning star. And the latter One, the God-man Jesus Christ is the preeminent One.
[quote] "I Jesus have sent My angel to testify these things in the churches, I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the bright morning star." (Rev. 22:16)
This is not a contradiction to the Daystar who became Satan being called "son of the morning" in that old creation.
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12 Apr 19
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I don't "boast" about it. I was a Catholic until about 15 years ago. No "boasting" is involved.
Over a decade you have come back many times to remind people of it.
It amounts to a brag really.
paraphrased "Don't forget, can't tell me anything, I USE to be a Christian like you are now."
A brag.
A boast.
I am not making any claims about how a supernatural being is flowing through me or how am I am becoming like a supernatural being.
Good for you. You make sure you don't make claims pretty much at all.
No position, no belief, nothing to stand for, just stand by and complain that others believe something.
Atheist ?
Well, kind of BOTH Atheist and an Agnostic you are. That's safe. Covers everything.
Deist?
Who knows ?
I think you want to keep it ambiguous.
No position is the easiest to defend.
Just keep asking others to defend THEIR beliefs.
That's where you are.
Now you're probably about to write a bragging post as to why you are like that.
These seem to me like "boasts" but the only reason we are using the words "boasting" and "boast" is because you introduced them into this conversation in reference to the claims you make about yourself.
As the Scripture has said and as Jesus said, he who believes into Him out of his innermost human spirit the Holy Spirit is moving.
Every saved person, including me, including anyone, has a destiny to be conformed to the image of Christ.
Do you think your "I don't see in conformity to Christ about YOU" is stopping God? Do you think it will stop God from the conformation work in me?
The church should have died out centuries ago had no evidence of some kind been seen and believed by people. We weren't born believing Christians.
We all heard or saw something with the Bible's word that convinced us we were on the right track.
I am not asking you to "
boast". I am asking you for evidence to support your claims about yourself.
You protest too much. I think continued argumentation from an atheist / deist might be evidence that you have a strong vested interest in Christ not being real in people.
The people really saying there is no evidence are usually off doing other things giving no thought to debating with Christians. You protest too much. There's some evidence for you.
12 Apr 19
@sonship saidI am not making any extraordinary claims about the effect of a supernatural being on me or about how I am "becoming like" that supernatural being. Do you not have any evidence - or can you not point to anything that is, according to you, evidence of the truth of your claims?
@FMF
I don't "boast" about it. I was a Catholic until about 15 years ago. No "boasting" is involved.
Over a decade you have come back many times to remind people of it.
It amounts to a brag really.
paraphrased "Don't forget, can't tell me anything, I USE to be a Christian like you are now."
A brag.
A boast.
[quote]
I am not making any clai ...[text shortened]... giving no thought to debating with Christians. You protest too much. There's some evidence for you.
12 Apr 19
@sonship saidI am not talking about claims the church makes. I am asking you about the specific claims that you have made about yourself.
The church should have died out centuries ago had no evidence of some kind been seen and believed by people. We weren't born believing Christians.
12 Apr 19
@sonship saidCan you give any examples of this "moving" in you or the effect of this "moving" on you? Or is it something purely inside your head that has no outward effect on your character or on your interactions with others?
As the Scripture has said and as Jesus said, he who believes into Him out of his innermost human spirit the Holy Spirit is moving.
12 Apr 19
@sonship saidNo. I don't brag or boast about having been a Christian. You are either being paranoid about me and my non-Christian perspective, or you are just making it up. I have never once in all my years here, in maybe 50,000+ posts, said "You can't tell me anything" to a Christian on account of me having been a Christian. I have never said anything even remotely like it. It is a fabrication on your part.
Over a decade you have come back many times to remind people of it.
It amounts to a brag really.
paraphrased "Don't forget, can't tell me anything, I USE to be a Christian like you are now."
A brag.
A boast.
12 Apr 19
@sonship saidThis is a mischaracterization of my contribution to the debates and discussions on this forum. I don't subscribe to or propagate a religion, if that's what you mean.
You make sure you don't make claims pretty much at all.
No position, no belief, nothing to stand for, just stand by and complain that others believe something.