- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
12 Apr 19
4 edits
@Ghost-of-a-Duke
With my limitation of time today, I am going to do some REFERRING to things already written. Referring under my time constraint makes an assumption that you REALLY care to look into the matter.
I see the name Cal Beisner mentioned in the table website in this places.
Brothers, Hear Our Defense (2): Concerning the Divine Trinity
https://contendingforthefaith.org/.../hear%20our%20defense%20(2)-- the%20divine%20trinity.pdf
File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat
[Passantino], Walter [Martin], Elliot [Miller], and Cal [Beisner]) was inadequate to the extent that my conclusion was wrong. My current research (developed with ...
A History of Our Responses to Criticism — Contending for the Faith
https://contendingforthefaith.org/.../a-history-of-our-responses-to-criticism/
E. Calvin Beisner. The first wave of opposition to Witness Lee's ministry originated in the mid-1970s from the fledgling apologists Bob and Gretchen Passantino, ...
The Error of Denying the Involvement of the Father in the Son's Work ...
https://contendingforthefaith.org/.../the-error-of-denying-the-involvement-of -the-father-in-the-sons-work/
My previous research (developed with and shared by Bob [Passantino], Walter [ Martin], Elliot [Miller], and Cal [Beisner]) was inadequate to the extent that my ...
at https://contendingforthefaith.org/en/search-results/?q=Beisner
So Beisner seems to have some response dedicated to him.
So what I would encourage you to do is to read a booklet by the co-workers of Lee entitled Brothers, Hear Our Defense. I am not able to cut and paste from it.
The relevant section is entitled:
THE ERROR OF INSISTING ON THREE "PERSONS" AS A LITMUS TEST OF ORTHODOXY
Here is the PDF of the book,
https://contendingforthefaith.org/pdf/hear%20our%20defense%20(2)--the%20divine%20trinity.pdf
Starting on page 8 through about page 12 you have the charge dealt with about insistence on the word "Persons" is supposedly the ONLY way to talk about the Father - Son - Holy Spirit.
I am under a time constraint today.
The Life Study of Genesis contained a very touching message on the offering of Isaac by his father Abraham (messages 57,58) Witness Lee used Genesis chapter 22 to show the two distinct Persons allegorically seen there.
(2) To Offer to God His Only Son
Whom He Loves
In verse 2 God said to Abraham, "Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of." God told Abraham to offer Isaac, his only son whom he loved. How hard it must have been for Abraham to do this! If we had been he, we would have said, "Lord, I am more than a hundred twenty years of age, and Sarah is about to die. How can You ask me to offer back to You what You have given me?"
https://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?n
As Abraham and Isaac were climbing Mount Moriah, Isaac said, "Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering?" (v. 7). Abraham replied, "My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering" (v. 8). Here we see that the son fellowshipped with the father. Do you not believe that while Jesus was bearing the cross on the way to Calvary He fellowshipped with the Father? And do you not believe that the Father talked with His Son? I do. If you say that the Bible does not tell us of this, I would say that Genesis 22 tells us so. We need to have the sight and the listening ear to hear the heavenly conversation on the way to Mount Moriah. Abraham and Isaac typified the Father and the Son, and their fellowship on the way to Mount Moriah was a vivid picture depicting how Jesus the Son fellowshipped with the Father as He was bearing the cross to Calvary. Although we do not have a clear explanation of this in plain words in the New Testament, we do have the picture in the Old Testament, and a picture is better than a thousand words. The picture in Genesis 22 portrays something which words cannot explain. Although the writers of the New Testament did not describe the loving fellowship between the Father and the Son on the way to Calvary, it is clearly portrayed in the picture in Genesis 22. How we all need to see this picture. As we shall see, nearly every point regarding the type in Genesis 22 is covered in John 1.
https://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?cid=2455
In the picture in Genesis 22, we see that Isaac, a full-grown man, was obedient unto death (vv. 9-10). According to the record of this chapter, in the matter of offering Isaac, Abraham consulted neither with his wife Sarah nor with his son Isaac. Abraham took his son, put the wood upon him, led him up the mountain, bound him, and laid him on the altar. He did not give Isaac the opportunity to say anything. But Isaac took his father's will and was obedient to death. Likewise, when the Lord Jesus was about to die, He said, "Not as I will, but as You will" (Matt. 26:39). In Philippians 2:8 we are told that Christ was obedient unto death. Look again at the picture: Isaac was obedient unto the altar. He not only followed the father to the foot of the mount; he also obeyed him in taking up the wood and in being bound. He did not resist. Even when the father laid him on the altar, took the knife, and stretched out his hand to slay him, he did not rebel. He was obedient unto death. If we consider all these aspects of Isaac as a type of Christ as portrayed in the Old Testament, we shall see that they were sovereignly arranged, matching the clear word of the New Testament revelation.
These last two samples of much taught by Lee in Message 58 of Life Study of Genesis. I don't think anyone can read that message and have any doubt that Witness Lee along with teaching that God is one, he also taught the mysterious distinct, going along together, convening, talking together, fellowshipping, conversing, loving "Persons" of the Father and the Son specifically.
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
“Limited time”
Limited backbone more like.
School yard taunt.
At heart I think you are a bully.
My automobile light will not turn off after I pull the keys out.
Runs down the battery.
Important to get fixed today.
Most important though - you don't scare me.
Ghost, I'll continue with you latter.
- Joined
- 16 Feb 08
- Moves
- 121702
12 Apr 19
1 edit
@sonship saidYou think I’m trying to scare you by challenging your beliefs on the internet?
@divegeester
Most important though - you don't scare me.
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
12 Apr 19
1 edit
It appears that cult-of-personality based on Witness Lee has got sonship convinced that he will be deified into a God-man after he dies.
Deification is a truth in the New Testament whether or not Witness Lee was ever born or not. It is not dependent upon a striking personality besides the Triune God Himself who predestinated to have sons before the foundation of the world.
Even as He chose us before the foundation of the world to be holy and without blemish before Him in love, predestinating us unto sonship through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will." (Eph. 1:4,5)
In your new Deistic belief do you see this aloof God having anything like a purpose for creation?
Or does your deism see a Creator creating and simply going away, non-concerned with the destiny of the creation and humankind?
That's what I understand Deism is about - a Deity who is involved ONCE everything was created.
Is that your position now?
- Joined
- 14 Mar 15
- Moves
- 29852
12 Apr 19
@sonship
Lee claimed to be an apostle who was leading and fulfilling “The Lord’s Recovery” of the church prophesied in books of the Old Testament like Nehemiah. He established the “Local Churches” by teaching that there should only be one church per city and to call a church anything other than “The Church in [Anaheim]” is fornication with the whore of Babylon.
And here, ladies and gentlemen, we reach the Grand Finale of Witness Lee’s false gospel: the Processed, Four-in-One God.
Ultimately, the church is a group of people who are in union with the Triune God and are mingled with the Triune God. The Triune God and the church are four-in-one. Because the Father, the Son, and the Spirit are all one with the Body of Christ, we may say that the Triune God is now the “four-in-one God.” These four are the Father, the Son, the Spirit, and the Body.
Witness Lee, A Deeper Study of the Divine Dispensing p.203-204
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
12 Apr 19
3 edits
Lee reads like a cultist and your Locsl church looks like a Lee cult to me, where this man is elevated to a status which he neither deserves and which cultivates and spirit of man worship.
Which book by Witness Lee have you read ?
None, I would bet.
Interesting that such diverse posters like Rajk999, Divegeester, FMF, and Ghost of a Duke seemed to have been united by a common enemy.
You guys atheist, deist(?), Unitarian, Judaiser have all been united in wanting desperately to frame Witness Lee as a cult leader.
Interesting how a common concern unites diverse religious people.
There is no “fountain of blood” despite whatever hymns it appears in.
Do Unitarians teach that Christians are not "justified in His blood" (Rom. 5:9) ?
Much more then, having been justified in His blood, ... (Rom. 5:9a)
One Ho Soo Kam (not of the local churches as far as I know) writes
The Ground of Justification is blood
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him." (Romans 5:9). The blood shed by the Lord Jesus Christ is the ground of our justification for "without shedding of blood is no remission" of sin (Heb 9:22). "The blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." (1 John 1:7). Even in his grace God did not and could not justify us unrighteously, that is, without justice. Consistent with his holiness, he required that sin's penalty be paid. So in grace, God gave his only begotten son to be the propitiation for our sin. Thus God could forgive and pardon us in justice, since sin's penalty was met by his sinless and righteous son. We are justified by faith in his blood, the blood of his cross. (Romans 3:25).
https://www.biblebelievers.com/kam/kam_003.html
Thank God for another teacher CLEAR about Justification even if he doesn't meet on the same ground of locality like we in the local churches.
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
12 Apr 19
Unitarians don't believe Jesus is the place of propitiation where men can be saved by "faith in His blood" ?
[Christ] "Whom God set forth a propitiation-cover through faith in His blood." (Romans 3:25a)
Is it that you just don't want to get carried away in your adoration of Christ's redemption to sing about a fountain filled with blood where sinners can plunge in and be redeemed and cleanse of all their guilty stains?
Maybe you want to be more reserved about this, not getting TOO carried away in appreciation?
Well, I don't mind having an adoring appreciation and singing about the blood of Jesus as a cleansing fountain.
If that puts me in a cult, then that's a cult I want to be a part of - the cult of guitly sinners cleansed from their sins by the blood of Jesus. Praise the Lord!
Unitarians don't believe this ?
God is not “triune”; this is a man-made word to support the man-made doctrine of the trinity. Salvation is absolutely not dependent on believing in this doctrine, to claim so is error and cultism.
Are the Father and the Son of the Divine "We" one God ?
" ... he will keep My words; and the Father will love him, and We will come to him and make an abode with him.
He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father's who sent Me." (John 14:23b,24)
Is the Son whose word it is not but the Father's AND Who was sent by the Father and the Father one God or more than one God ?
I say both are one God.
I say both divine Persons of the "We" there are one God.
If that puts me in a cult then so be it.
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
12 Apr 19
3 edits
Lee claimed to be an apostle who was leading and fulfilling “The Lord’s Recovery” of the church prophesied in books of the Old Testament like Nehemiah.
1.) Quotation please.
2.) Would you have it that no one was doing a work similar to Nehemiah ?
Did he say he was the ONLY one doing laboring on such a recovery work?
Interesting to me how you fellas have been unified to get together to drink in criticisms of Witness Lee as if he is a common enemy to you all.
Fascinating, like the Pharisees and the Sadducee and the Herodians uniting together to oppose Jesus.
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
12 Apr 19
1 edit
He established the “Local Churches” by teaching that there should only be one church per city and to call a church anything other than “The Church in [Anaheim]” is fornication with the whore of Babylon.
Watchman Nee before him on the mainland of China taught that churches should be designated according to cities, according to localities. See -
The Normal Christian Church Life by Watchman Nee.
Further Talks on the Church Life by Watchman Nee.
Even published not by LSM see "Assembling Together" by Watchman Nee published by Christian Fellowship Publishers (no fans of Witness Lee).
Witness Lee continued to lead people to Christ and establish local churches after the Communist Revolution in China imprisoned Watchman Nee.
Witness Lee continued to do the work that he learned to do in coordination with Watchman Nee.
Fascinating how Atheists who could care less about Christianity are now pounding the podium defending it against an erroneously perceived enemy of the Gospel.
If all this causes an Atheist to start considering the claims of Jesus more seriously, I am overjoyed.
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
12 Apr 19
1 edit
And here, ladies and gentlemen, we reach the Grand Finale of Witness Lee’s false gospel: the Processed, Four-in-One God.
Let's bring the Atheist DEFENDER of Christianity faithfully back to the word of God to see that JESUS said that we would be one in the Triune God in His mighty prayer in John 17.
That they all may be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, that the world may believe that You have sent Me.
And the glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, even as We are one;
I in them, and You in Me, that they may be perfected into one, that the world may know that You have sent Me and have loved them even as You have loved Me ...
(John 17:21-23)
Fascinating, What else does the Atheist have in the way of DEFENDING Christianity ??
By the way, Witness Lee didn't insert those words into the New Testament.
Jesus prayed them. John recorded them.
Ultimately, the church is a group of people who are in union with the Triune God and are mingled with the Triune God.
That's not the invention of Witness Lee. That is the revelation of the New Testament.
Christ and the church are to be husband and wife in Paul's letter to the Ephesians.
For this cause a man shall leave his father and mother and shall be joined to his wife, and the two shall be one flesh.
This mystery is great, but I speak of Christ and the church." (Eph. 5:31,32)
We have the mystery of oneness in marriage pointing to a greater universal truth of the joining of Christ to His church.
"This mystery is great, BUT ... I speak of Christ and the church."
The Holy Spirit lives in the Bride in the end and speaks together with her.
"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come!" And let him who hears say, Come!. And let him who is thirsty come; let him take the water of life freely." (Rev. 22:17)
The Husband, the Bridegroom is now the Spirit living in the Bride, the Wife of the church. She is indwelt by the Third of the Triune God, the Spirit. They speak together in the end.
Will the Atheist turned defender of Christianity also now defend against the Apostle Paul too ?
Paul says the church is to be the habitation of God in spirit -
"In whom all the building being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord.
In whom you also are being built together into a dwelling place (habitation) of God in spirit." (Eph. 2:21,22)
I wonder if the Atheist Ghost of a Duke turned to defender of Christianity is now going to level his criticisms of protection against Paul ?
The Triune God and the church are four-in-one.
What would you call Jesus petition to the Father that -
That they all may be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, ... (John 17:21)
What is that other than His request that the church be one with and in the three-one God of Father - Son - Holy Spirit ?
That is a kind of four in one unity which does not usurp the Godhead of His non-communicable attributes. But this is Christ's mighty prayer that in eternity the triune God be one with His saved people.
Why do you think the Bible ends in a great MARRIAGE ?
Why do you think the New Jerusalem is called "the tabernacle of God" ?
Witness Lee didn't invent this. He just repeats it and labors to bring it about, as well all Christians should.
Because the Father, the Son, and the Spirit are all one with the Body of Christ, we may say that the Triune God is now the “four-in-one God.” These four are the Father, the Son, the Spirit, and the Body.
Witness Lee, A Deeper Study of the Divine Dispensing p.203-204
That is what we see in Christ's mighty petition to His Father in John 17.
But I think it is intriguing that an Atheist is making a step in the right direction to be concerned to defend what he deems orthodox about the Christian Faith.
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
12 Apr 19
1 edit
Folks Ghost of a Duke is an atheist evolving into an apologist for Christianity.
This transformation is very interesting indeed.
Follow along now as what was formerly of no concern to him (the claims of Christianity) he now rushes in to research and defend against a perceived enemy - Witness Lee.