The Wisdom of Witness Lee

@Rajk999

These are not unbelievers. These are disciplined Christians who are "NEAR A CURSE".

We've been through this before with you.
"Near a curse" is not the same as actually BEING cursed. But it is serious discipline.

Now, the passage says -

"For it is impossible to renew again to repentance those who were once enlightened, and who have tasted of the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,

And have tasted the good word of God, and the works of power of the coming age, and have fallen away, crucifying again for themselves the Son of God, and putting Him to open shame.

For the earth which drinks the rain which often comes upon it and brings forth vegetation suitable to those for whose sake also it is tilled, partakes of blessing from God;
But bring forth thnorns and thistles, it is disapproved and near a curse, whose end is to be burned." (Hebrew 6:4-8)

The intention of the fire is to burn up the worthless vegetation - of thorns and thistle that was brought forth by the earth. The bad outcome is to be burned up, which will no doubt be a suffering of loss to the one who brought them forth.

This is not eternal punishment but the loss of reward accompanied with the destruction of the worthless fruits produced.

"If anyone's work shall be consumed, he shall suffer lose, but he shall be saved, YET SO AS THROUGH FIRE." (1 Cor. 3:15)

Note now that Rajk999 will not be able to refute this. So he will hurl warnings and insults in place of well argued counter explanations.

@Rajk999

That statement alone should make a LCM member to get up and walk straight out of that church. But these people are sheep being led astray by a conniving crooked man. The bible says that these leaders appear as angels of light. It is only the elect of God who can see straight through their lies and deceit. I guess that makes you one of the elect.

Perhaps if nothing ELSE were ever said but this statement "ALONE" that would be true. But being honest servants of God the co-workers and publications do not make an isolated sentence alone mean nothing else is to be said.

That is the slander needed by the lazy one who needs a bone to choke on at a turkey feast, so to speak.

"I found something to choke on. Nothing else will I read. This is all I need to shut my ears and close my eyes and padlock my mind."

@sonship said
@Rajk999

That statement alone should make a LCM member to get up and walk straight out of that church. But these people are sheep being led astray by a conniving crooked man. The bible says that these leaders appear as angels of light. It is only the elect of God who can see straight through their lies and deceit. I guess that makes you one of the elect.

...[text shortened]... Nothing else will I read. This is all I need to shut my ears and close my eyes and padlock my mind."

For the third time of asking, is it slander when you speak critically of Darwin?

Or does slander only occur when it is directed at Lee?

@Rajk999

Jesus Christ and every single Apostle spoke these very same words. But you and your cult buddies speak lies and deceive those who lack knowledge of the bible teachings. You false teachers are going to face the judgment of God for lying and deceiving the innocent

It is time for you, Rajk999, to DEFINE what a CULT is to you.

You are throwing around a vague term which also seems to mean a group of people that you don't like.

And since you are SO very desperately alone, isolated, individualistic, "free" from any kind of group fellowship, MAYBE any gathering of believers more than just yourself constitutes a "cult" to you.

Sharpen up now your ad homs and vicious name calling.
I don't even think any more about getting well reasoned rational replies from you.

Not holding my breath. That's for sure.

@sonship said
@Rajk999

These are not unbelievers. These are disciplined Christians who are "NEAR A CURSE".

We've been through this before with you.
"Near a curse" is not the same as actually BEING cursed. But it is serious discipline.

Now, the passage says -

[quote]"For it is impossible to renew again to repentance those who were once enlig ...[text shortened]... e to refute this. So he will hurl warnings and insults in place of well argued counter explanations.

There is nothing to refute. I never said anyone were unbelievers. They are all believers, born again Christian Saints who Paul is addressing. They will be destroyed. That passage is crystal clear.

They will be burnt and destroyed [also stated in other passages], just like the briers and thorns. There is NO INHERITANCE IN THE KINGDOM OF GOD for such Christians.

You can argue all you like. The bible speaks for itself. I do not need to refute anything.

@Rajk999

There is nothing to refute. I never said anyone were unbelievers. They are all believers, born again Christian Saints who Paul is addressing. They will be destroyed.

So you are saying then that they are not eternally lost?
Then we agree.

If you are saying "destroyed" doesn't mean eternally lost then we have no debate on this passage.

That passage is crystal clear.

It is crystal clear that the ground is "near a curse". .... "NEAR".


It is pretty clear that the purpose of the fire is to burn up the worthless vegetation not destroy the land.

They will be burnt and destroyed [also stated in other passages], just like the briers and thorns. There is NO INHERITANCE IN THE KINGDOM OF GOD for such Christians.

All those born of God will eventually be suitable to inherit the kingdom.
Some in a timely matter , maturing when they were suppose to,
others is a tardy manner, like having to take summer school when failing the regular season.

All born of God disciplined or rewarded will eventually partake of the common blessings of the new heaven and new earth in the New Jerusalem.

You cannot refute this, I am pretty sure.

You can argue all you like. The bible speaks for itself. I do not need to refute anything.

You need perhaps to defend your interpretation, which, if argues that God REVOKES the GIFT of eternal life, requires your defending.

Because it is wrong.

NOW... besides being a group of believing people who you would like to portray negatively, WHAT IS A CULT ?

@sonship said
@Rajk999

Jesus Christ and every single Apostle spoke these very same words. But you and your cult buddies speak lies and deceive those who lack knowledge of the bible teachings. You false teachers are going to face the judgment of God for lying and deceiving the innocent

It is time for you, Rajk999, to DEFINE what a CULT is to you.

You are throwing a ...[text shortened]... about getting well reasoned rational replies from you.

Not holding my breath. That's for sure.

A cult is a religious group whose doctrine is based on a narrow interpretation of scripture usually from the teachings of one man. There are many characteristics but the one most basic identifying feature of cults is that they are convinced that they alone are right and have Gods truth. Your condemned of all other religions including the rest of Christianity demonstrates that you belong to such a group.

@sonship said
@Rajk999

There is nothing to refute. I never said anyone were unbelievers. They are all believers, born again Christian Saints who Paul is addressing. They will be destroyed.

So you are saying then that they are not eternally lost?
Then we agree.

If you are saying "destroyed" doesn't mean eternally lost then we have no debate on this passage.

[q ...[text shortened]... besides being a group of believing people who you would like to portray negatively, WHAT IS A CULT ?

You can change the teachings of the bible all you like.

The fact is that there is a group of born again Christian Saints who are going to be

BURNT and DESTROYED
CAST OUT OF AND HAVE NO INHERITANCE IN THE KINGDOM OF GOD

It is futile to argue against the bible.

@Rajk999

You can change the teachings of the bible all you like.

Put the original verse and next to it my quotation. Point out where I CHANGED the teaching.

The fact is that there is a group of born again Christian Saints who are going to be
BURNT and DESTROYED
CAST OUT OF AND HAVE NO INHERITANCE IN THE KINGDOM OF GOD

Some will be SAVED ... yet so as through fire. I QUOTED the Bible and did not CHANGE it.

If anyone's work shall be consumed, he shall suffer loss, but he shall be saved, yet so as through fire." (1 Cor. 3:15)

The span and scope of that warning covers a wide spectrum of things which God can do to discipline His sons, ... sons with ETERNAL life.

It is futile to argue against the bible.

To quote First Corinthians 3:15 is not futile.

Neither is it futile to point out carefully what Hebrews 6:8 says - "near a curse".

As a matter of fact the next verse indicates that the writer was persuaded that BETTER things awaited the saints here who needed this admonishment -

But we are persuaded of better things concerning you, beloved, and things which belong to salavation, though we speak thus." (v.9)

There is an irony here in talking to Rajk999. He wants to jump on the bandwagon of condemning Witness Lee for saying discouraging things to those in the organized Christianity, YET what do we EVER get from Rajk999 but his frothing at the mouth that Christians are going to be DESTROYED, DESTROYED, DESTROYED !

I mean his piano seems only to have ONE key on it all the time... warning Christians that they are headed for being destroyed, in one post or another or another.

@sonship said

It is futile to argue against the bible.

To quote First Corinthians 3:15 is not futile.

Neither is it futile to point out carefully what Hebrews 6:8 says - "near a curse".

As a matter of fact the next verse indicates that the writer was persuaded that BETTER things awaited the saints here who needed this admonishment -

...[text shortened]... e... warning Christians that they are headed for being destroyed, in one post or another or another.

Here is a sample of your continued deceitful doctrine of lies
"Near a curse" is not all the bible says. The passage continues

But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned. (Hebrews 6:8 KJV)

Their end is to be burned. You say in the end they will be saved.
Their END MEANS IN THE END THEY WILL BE DESTROYED.

There are all kinds of Christian Saints.
1. Some are righteous and will inherit the Kingdom of God
2. Some are mediocre and will be corrected and will suffer punishment but they will still enter the Kingdom of God.
3. Some are evil and will be destroyed.

This is the true teaching of Christ and the Apostles.

Your twisted nonsensical doctrine ignores the third group because you claim that Christians can sin all they like and still get eternal life. Well that is the doctrine of a fool.. The reason why I harp on it is that you ignore the truth. You are a deceitful liar whose end is also to be burned and destroyed because you are encouraging others to continue with a life of sin and evil.

@Rajk999

There are many such statements that WL and his cult doctrine choose to ignore.

You can use the search engine at www.ministrybooks.org. Lightening speed computer search will locate in a thousand pages of hundreds of books where Witness Lee spoke to a certain point.

https://www.ministrybooks.org/

That is a reasonable way to see if WL "ignored" a particular verse, to examine the PUBLISHED messages of W. Lee.

Check to see if phrases pertaining to First Corinthians 3 or Hebrews chapters 6 or 10.

Rak999 is such a unethical and unprincipled slanderer to accuse Lee of ignoring his passages (because he has a different interpretation from Rajk999) just check table of contents

Life Study of First Corinthian,

https://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?id=255EF8

Life Study of Hebrews

https://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?id=2551FB

@Rajk999

But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned. (Hebrews 6:8 KJV)

Their end is to be burned. You say in the end they will be saved.
Their END MEANS IN THE END THEY WILL BE DESTROYED.

Rajk999 says Witness Lee IGNORES the passage.

Let's check.

At this point we need to read verses 7 and 8. “For the earth which drinks the rain which often comes upon it and brings forth vegetation suitable to those for whose sake also it is tilled, partakes of blessing from God; but bringing forth thorns and thistles, it is disapproved and near a curse, whose end is to be burned.” Those who go back again and again to renew their original repentance are like the earth which drinks the rain which falls upon it and does not bring forth proper vegetation. The “rain” in verse 7 refers back to the five categories of good things mentioned in verses 4 and 5. Bringing forth vegetation is an illustration of being brought on to maturity. The believers, as the earth, are tilled for God's sake that they might bring forth Christ as the vegetation to maturity. By this they partake of blessing from God. Christ is the proper vegetation. If instead of bringing forth Christ, we bring forth thorns and thistles, that will be a waste.

An unbelieving sinner is a real curse, but Christians who bear thorns and thistles are near a curse. Strictly speaking, the thorns and thistles in verse 8 refer to the traditional things of the old religion of the Hebrew Christians. The Greek word translated “disapproved” may also be rendered “disqualified,” “counted worthless,” “rejected,” “cast away.” If any believer would not be brought on to maturity but rather would fall back to the old things, he will be disapproved of by God. The believers, once saved, can never be a real curse. But if we do not go on to grow Christ, but rather hold on to things which displease God, we are near the curse of suffering the punishment of God's governmental dealing. (Consider this with the discipline of chastisement in 12:7-8.) This is absolutely different from the suffering of eternal perdition, which is the real curse.

From Life Study of Hebrews
https://www.ministrybooks.org/SearchMinBooksDsp.cfm?id=295BF980DB

XXVII. THE FIVE WARNINGS IN HEBREWS
...
The third warning, regarding being brought on to maturity (5:11-6:20), tells us not to be like the earth that brings forth “thorns and thistles” because “it is disapproved and near a curse, whose end is to be burned.” In the fourth warning we are told to come forward to the Holy of Holies and not to shrink back to Judaism (10:19-39). And in the fifth warning we are encouraged to run the race and not to fall away from grace (12:1-29). The Arminians use these five warnings as a basis for saying that a saved person can be lost again. But if we look into these portions of the Word in a proper way, we shall see that they do not speak of being lost again but of the matter of reward, either the positive reward of gaining a prize or the negative reward of receiving punishment.

I just used the search engine on the word "THISTLES" to see how many hits I got on messages from Hebrews

Hebrews 6 proves this. Verses 7 and 8 say, “For the earth which drinks the rain which often comes upon it and brings forth vegetation suitable to those for whose sake also it is tilled, partakes of blessing from God; but bringing forth thorns and thistles, it is disapproved and near a curse, whose end is to be burned.” The earth may produce vegetation or thorns. The thorns may be burned, but the land will still remain, having suffered a loss. Likewise, the believers can never be lost, but all that they bring forth which is not according to God's economy will be burned. Whatever we do that is against the will of God will be burned, but this does not mean that we shall be lost.

At this juncture let us consider 1 Corinthians 3:12-14. “Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.” The believers are God's farm (1 Cor. 3:9). Whatever we grow that is wood, hay, and stubble will be burned. But if our work abides as gold, silver, and precious stones, we shall receive a reward, a prize. However, if a man's work is burned, he shall suffer loss, but this does not mean that he will lose his salvation. The following verse says, “If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as through fire” (Gk). This verse is very clear. A saved person may suffer loss, but he will not lose his salvation; he will be “saved as through fire.” Do you want to be “saved through fire”? If you ask me what the fire is here, I would say that I do not know. More than thirty-five years ago, an older Christian friend was arguing with me saying, “How could a saved person still be saved through fire?” I answered, “I don't know, but the Bible tells us so.”

https://www.ministrybooks.org/SearchMinBooksDsp.cfm?id=295BF983D9

Read with these cut and pastes with patience.
Others, stay with your prejudices. But you're vulnerable to people like Rajk999.

@Rajk999

Your twisted nonsensical doctrine ignores the third group because you claim that Christians can sin all they like and still get eternal life. Well that is the doctrine of a fool.. The reason why I harp on it is that you ignore the truth. You are a deceitful liar whose end is also to be burned and destroyed because you are encouraging others to continue with a life of sin and evil.

Whoever agrees with Rajk999 that for the past ten plus years I have been involved in using the Bible to encouraging others to continue with a life of sin and evil voice your agreement with Rajk999.

About the SPECIFIC charge please, I mean.
Be back in about an hour.