29 Nov 18
@fmf saidTorture is self-evidently heinous wether it is commited by humans or supposed vengeful Gods. The tendency of human beings to disrespect one another’s existencial harmony with “torture’ is a repellent narrative of our species. As for torturing deities, well, those of us with an intact moral compass should set an example to those beings who would Lord it over us in that manner.
This thread is not about Christian doctrine regarding supernatural torture.
Torture in all forms was banned by the 1948 Universal Declaration of Human Rights.
According to whatever religious/philosophical/moral ideology you have, what is your stance with regard to torture?
30 Nov 18
People receiving pain in response to doing something horrible is justifiable, right. But the big problem is that people are incapable of being omniscient, and thus we cannot actually pass a judgment on someone that justifies torture.
But generally speaking, I support the concept of, say, a member of a terrorist organization being subjected to torture if it is believed he has relevant information that could save lives, and make it so that it is limited and restricted, and that it has to be approved of by an independent body that can be held accountable for the decisions.
Of course, the context has to be pretty specific and good.
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30 Nov 18
@philokalia saidWow.
People receiving pain in response to doing something horrible is justifiable, right. But the big problem is that people are incapable of being omniscient, and thus we cannot actually pass a judgment on someone that justifies torture.
But generally speaking, I support the concept of, say, a member of a terrorist organization being subjected to torture if it is believed ...[text shortened]... be held accountable for the decisions.
Of course, the context has to be pretty specific and good.
So you are ok with torturing people to get information from them as long as the “context” is “pretty specific and good”.
What would that look like then. For example?
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30 Nov 18
5 edits
"For the purpose of this Convention, the term "torture" means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him, or a third person,
So no one in a PRISON is subject to these things at the hands of other prisoners, guards, solitary confinement, gangs, mean wardens, anywhere in any jail or prison around the world ?
information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity.
So no one behind prison bars in Indonesia might say she or he was being tortured ?
It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in, or incidental to, lawful sanctions."
The punishment of God according to God's law is lawful sanction.
And if it is hard for us to imagine what divine punishment is like, having never experienced such a thing, it is God's goodness to WARN us in terms that we CAN understand that it will be BAD.
And to warn us in terms UNMISTAKENLY communicating that the lost will not enjoy being eternally lost, is also God's responsibility and goodness to convey that.
Ie. "the lake of fire", "the second death" , "the eternal fire" , "eternal punishment", "perdition" , "destruction", "perish" , "retribution" , "righteous judgment" , "wrath" , "penalty of eternal destruction" , "dealing out vengeance" "shall pay the penalty".
The United Nations or some other Convention will not be able to change God. His option through salvation in Jesus Christ is His way that we avoid that terrible misfortune of His judgment.
Are you as concerned about partial birth abortion as men torturing men elsewhere? The cutting and chopping off limbs of a baby in the mother's womb. Are you opposed to that torture just as much ?
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30 Nov 18
@sonship saidIt wonderful that as you once said sonship, “the lost will GLORIFY him (Jesus) in their endless woe”.
And if it is hard for us to imagine what divine punishment is like, having never experienced such a thing, it is God's goodness to WARN us in terms that we CAN understand that it will be BAD.
And to warn us in terms UNMISTAKENLY communicating that the lost will not enjoy being eternally lost, is also God's responsibility and goodness to convey that.
Beautiful and poetic, so kind and loving, a manifesto of mercy.
01 Dec 18
@secondson said"Fear"? I didn't see your question. I'll take a look.
It appears there is some fear of discussing this topic.
I'm interested in hearing FMF's, or any other's, reply to the question I posed to him on page one.
01 Dec 18
@secondson saidI'd probably demand that the torture go ahead. It don't think my emotional reaction and decision makes it morally right though. And I don't think this particular well-thumbed scenario undermines the broad prohibition on torture as established by international and national laws. I don't think the fact that you me would answer your question in the same way legitimizes torture as punishment for example.
God forbid one of your children was kidnapped. What wouldn't you do to someone you knew had information that would bring your child safely home?
01 Dec 18
@secondson saidThe thread's OP was intended to be more about things like the 1987 United Nations Convention against Torture rather than you complaining about divegeester's posting style. Your question about a kidnapped child was more joined up and worthy of a debate about a pretty serious subject.
No.
I wasn't talking to you anyway, and I'll post as I please.
You're not in control. After all, you're merely a randomly existing biological creature and a product of millions of years of evolution coupled with environmental indoctrination. You have no free will, so stop trying to exert it here.
Enjoy.
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01 Dec 18
8 edits
I'd probably demand that the torture go ahead. It don't think my emotional reaction and decision makes it morally right though.
This informs us that you realize of your own moral imperfection. You might judge wrongly. You might be overcome with feeling to the point that you would make a wrong moral choice.
As a Christian I have to consider God who is complete in knowledge and perfect in morality, even being the very ground of morality.
I have to consider God whose balance of emotion and intellect is impossible to be lopsided.
I have to consider that the Teacher of warnings of eternal punishment has a moral character which is beyond human questioning. No one can put a candle to Jesus.
When He teaches about eternal punishment, it demands of me serious attention.
And I don't think this particular well-thumbed scenario undermines the broad prohibition on torture as established by international and national laws.
The scenario brings out that in spite of our best laid out principles to regulate decent norms by civilized people, there will invariably be tough issues, very hard cases, very difficult situations which will "slip through the cracks". These are particularly thorny exceptional circumstances. Right?
As a Christian I have to take into account that for God there are no such situation, being infinite in understanding. You and I as finite humans have many situations which our created human wisdom cannot handle.
But God's creation testifies of His eternal power and unlimited knowledge.
I cannot quickly assume that because you and I would make an error, God would.
I don't think the fact that you me would answer your question in the same way legitimizes torture as punishment for example.
As a Christian I have to consider there is a difference between you and I and Jesus Christ. Our character is quite questionable morally. I am persuaded that the Teacher a last judgment of the world displays an approved character that is beyond criticism. He is in fact too good for this world. Yet He came.
I also have to consider to what degree He thought judgment by God was a serious thing AND what He could do to save us from eternal judgment.
And I would say WHATEVER the details of being condemned by God, Jesus took it more seriously then ANYONE. He has taken this need more seriously then ANYTHING as a problem He could solve for the world.
We may argue over the word pictures used to portray the horror of eternal punishment. But that Jesus took our need to be SAVED from being judged by God with absolute ultimate and all-consuming dedication, can hardly be disputed.
In His whole life and especially in the Garden of Gethsemane and at Calvary Jesus took our need to be redeemed from eternal judgment too seriously for many of us to underestimate the significance of this.
01 Dec 18
@fmf saidAgreed.
I'd probably demand that the torture go ahead. It don't think my emotional reaction and decision makes it morally right though. And I don't think this particular well-thumbed scenario undermines the broad prohibition on torture as established by international and national laws. I don't think the fact that you me would answer your question in the same way legitimizes torture as punishment for example.
@sonship saidI've been talking about this openly and in detail for years. I realized it when I was a Christian. I still realize it now that I'm not. People realize it when they are still pre-teens.
This informs us that you realize of your own moral imperfection. You might judge wrongly. You might be overcome with feeling to the point that you would make a wrong moral choice.