Torture

@divegeester said
Wow.

So you are ok with torturing people to get information from them as long as the “context” is “pretty specific and good”.

What would that look like then. For example?

You capture an important and known member of a terrorist cell; you have perhaps 12 to 24 hours to extract relevant information of other terrorist cells before they catch on to the fact that an important figure is missing and they will have to change locations and take other security measures to prevent being caught.

Since that group has actively murdered people and is a persistent threat, it would then be acceptable to employ some means of torture against a known terrorist in order to extract valuable information that will save the lives of innocent civilians at the cost of torturing a known terrorist.

Because, if you do not, and useful information can be extracted potentially, the lives of the dead in the next attack will be on your head, won't it?

And even if he provides bogus information, it isn't that much of a loss: because useful information could have been obtained, it was necessary to give it a shot, and the only thing that is loss is the good conscience of the torturers.

@sonship said
@SecondSon

[quote] Come on FMF! Obviously sonship endorses torture. 😵

What a silly question. What do you seek to accomplish by asking it? It's a bated question which underscores your intent, and demonstrates that you are contemptuous towards those that hold to a sound biblical moral code of ethics.

What are you thinking? That sonship is a follower of Vlad the Impal ...[text shortened]... argument.

Then he valiantly knocks down his strawman thinking that he's done something great.
.

Your reluctance to answer straightforward questions about your beliefs highlights to me the extreme nature of those beliefs and your willingness to avoid exposure.

For example; eternal torture by your version of Jesus as being “perfect justice”

@philokalia said
You should be aware of this sort of criticism, FMF.

On the other thread ~ I have provided a link ~ sonship asked me over and over again if I oppose torture around the world and would I release all people being subjected to torture ~ and he was asking me this because I think his torturer God ideology is morally incoherent. I don't believe supernatural torture exists and yes I do oppose torture [as already discussed]. That's why I started this thread. sonship seems to have bailed out.

@philokalia said
One of the biggest tells on this overall strategy is your total lack of expounding on your own beliefs.

When I tried to talk to you about human rights a while back - for instance - you just kept ignoring the content of my posts, page after page, occasionally describing my views - but without being specific - of being schoolboy trash blah blah blah or repeatedly insisting that I posted stuff that was as "deep" as the stuff you were posting. But I didn't see anything "deep" from you and meanwhile you were blanking out the point-blank answers to your questions I was giving you and simply ignoring my statements of my own beliefs in dozens and dozens of posts.

@fmf said
On the other thread ~ I have provided a link ~ sonship asked me over and over again if I oppose torture around the world and would I release all people being subjected to torture ~ and he was asking me this because I think his torturer God ideology is morally incoherent. I don't believe supernatural torture exists and yes I do oppose torture [as already discussed]. That's why I started this thread. sonship seems to have bailed out.

I think it'd be interesting to keep track of the number of threads in which "torture" is a theme for you, versus the number of threads in which it isn't.

Alright, so your view is something like:

- Hell is torture;
- Hell is eternal
- God sends people to hell
- God is a torturer.

But is this the exact narrative that the Bible asserts?

Is this the narrative that Sonship asserts?

Or is it significantly more complex than that?

What do you think is actually happening here?

@fmf said
When I tried to talk to you about human rights a while back - for instance - you just kept ignoring the content of my posts, page after page, occasionally describing my views - but without being specific - of being schoolboy trash blah blah blah or repeatedly insisting that I posted stuff that was as "deep" as the stuff you were posting. But I didn't see anything "deep" from you ...[text shortened]... I was giving you and simply ignoring my statements of my own beliefs in dozens and dozens of posts.

You weren't acutally going deep, though, and you were not being relevant. You kept trying to bring up the super specific case of Indonesia as opposed to talking about it as a whole, and, as per usual, you were attempting to steer the discussion to the exact point that you wanted it and not toward the open waters where honest discussions take place.

But, sure, we can talk about that again, if you like. And maybe this time you will be more specific in y our assertions, thus allowing us to have a real discussion.

@philokalia said
You'll gladly tell us what you don't believe in, and it fits very nicely into the default liberal, atheist, materialist perspective that is based on fulfilling a lot of the Gutmensch criteria and nothing more.

In a sense, it is its own sort of nihilism because it is not really centered around active belief in anything but a generally prevailing skepticism that c ...[text shortened]... oves the smallest of ethical statements and everything becomes an issue of "consenting adults," etc.

Well, I am not superstitious - I don't believe in supernatural causality - and I am not religious. So I am obviously not able to offer anything other than an atheistic perspective on stories about angels and demons and divine beings and supernatural phenomena and "sin" and people rising from the dead and non-Christians getting tortured by a vengeful "creator being".

So I'm not sure what you want on that front. This is not a Christian website. It's not a Theism website.

Meanwhile, I have spent the last decade contributing prolifically to and starting discussions on morality, politics, sexuality, family, parenthood, meaning of life, nature of love, nature of happiness, mortality, philosophy, history, culture, psychology, anthropology, all in accordance with my beliefs which I personally define as spiritual [as you know] albeit not theistic.

I don't think there's anything nihilistic about my perspectives and stances. I think religionists dismissing those who do not believe in everlasting life as being nihilistic is a kind of lazy deflection-cum-odge.

@philokalia said
You weren't acutally going deep, though, and you were not being relevant. You kept trying to bring up the super specific case of Indonesia as opposed to talking about it as a whole, and, as per usual, you were attempting to steer the discussion to the exact point that you wanted it and not toward the open waters where honest discussions take place.

I disagree. I was happy with what I contributed. I take it this is your excuse for ignoring the content of my posts, page after page, occasionally describing my views with silly little insults?

@philokalia said
But, sure, we can talk about that again, if you like.

Just go back and respond to all the content of posts you ignored it's still there. You deliberately stopped using the 'quote' feature so that you could pretend to be engaging in a discussion while not actually addressing what I was saying and the answers to your questions - a little sidestepping gimmick that I don't use and that you use a lot.

@philokalia said
I think it'd be interesting to keep track of the number of threads in which "torture" is a theme for you, versus the number of threads in which it isn't.

Well, the theme is moral incoherence, in fact. That you haven't twigged that ~ despite "the number of threads" ~ is revealing. Talking to sonship about the "perfect morality" at the very core of his torturer god ideology is like finding Colonel Kurtz encamped in a dark forest.

@philokalia said
In a sense, it is its own sort of nihilism because it is not really centered around active belief in anything but a generally prevailing skepticism that cautiously approves the smallest of ethical statements and everything becomes an issue of "consenting adults," etc.

Well, I am not a Christian, if that's what you are getting at.

@fmf said
You deliberately stopped using the 'quote' feature so that you could pretend to be engaging in a discussion while not actually addressing what I was saying and the answers to your questions - a little sidestepping gimmick that I don't use and that you use a lot.

Yes philokalia does this when replying to me also.

@divegeester said
Your reluctance to answer straightforward questions about your beliefs highlights to me the extreme nature of those beliefs and your willingness to avoid exposure.

For example; eternal torture by your version of Jesus as being “perfect justice”

Why do you doubt the veracity of God's Word? The fate of the damned is clearly taught in scripture.

Matthew 25:46
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

The distinction between the righteous and the Christ rejecting and their fate is unequivocally and clearly stated in the scriptures.

@secondson said
Why do you doubt the veracity of God's Word? The fate of the damned is clearly taught in scripture.

Matthew 25:46
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

The distinction between the righteous and the Christ rejecting and their fate is unequivocally and clearly stated in the scriptures.

Ok. Let’s have a look at the whole chapter.

The Parable of the Ten Virgins

1“At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. 2Five of them were foolish and five were wise. 3The foolish ones took their lamps but did not take any oil with them. 4The wise ones, however, took oil in jars along with their lamps. 5The bridegroom was a long time in coming, and they all became drowsy and fell asleep.

6“At midnight the cry rang out: ‘Here’s the bridegroom! Come out to meet him!’

7“Then all the virgins woke up and trimmed their lamps. 8The foolish ones said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil; our lamps are going out.’

9“ ‘No,’ they replied, ‘there may not be enough for both us and you. Instead, go to those who sell oil and buy some for yourselves.’

10“But while they were on their way to buy the oil, the bridegroom arrived. The virgins who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet. And the door was shut.

11“Later the others also came. ‘Lord, Lord,’ they said, ‘open the door for us!’

12“But he replied, ‘Truly I tell you, I don’t know you.’

13“Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour.

The Parable of the Bags of Gold

14“Again, it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants and entrusted his wealth to them. 15To one he gave five bags of gold, to another two bags, and to another one bag, a each according to his ability. Then he went on his journey. 16The man who had received five bags of gold went at once and put his money to work and gained five bags more. 17So also, the one with two bags of gold gained two more. 18But the man who had received one bag went off, dug a hole in the ground and hid his master’s money.

19“After a long time the master of those servants returned and settled accounts with them. 20The man who had received five bags of gold brought the other five. ‘Master,’ he said, ‘you entrusted me with five bags of gold. See, I have gained five more.’

21“His master replied, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master’s happiness!’

22“The man with two bags of gold also came. ‘Master,’ he said, ‘you entrusted me with two bags of gold; see, I have gained two more.’

23“His master replied, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master’s happiness!’

24“Then the man who had received one bag of gold came. ‘Master,’ he said, ‘I knew that you are a hard man, harvesting where you have not sown and gathering where you have not scattered seed. 25So I was afraid and went out and hid your gold in the ground. See, here is what belongs to you.’

26“His master replied, ‘You wicked, lazy servant! So you knew that I harvest where I have not sown and gather where I have not scattered seed? 27Well then, you should have put my money on deposit with the bankers, so that when I returned I would have received it back with interest.

28“ ‘So take the bag of gold from him and give it to the one who has ten bags. 29For whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them. 30And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

The metaphors of the Sheep and the Goats, of shepherd and the king, of hunger and thirst, the analogy of prison and visiting

31“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37“Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40“The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

but suddenly the LITERAL reality of the up until then parabolic goats which are suddenly LITERAL people being scolded for the parabolic feeding and drinking and being thrown in a LITERAL everlasting punishment or lake of fire and brimstone etc and so forth.

41“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44“They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45“He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

do you see what I’m getting at here?