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30 Dec 09
Originally posted by Lord SharkYes. 'Essence' has especially come under fire in postmodern theories. The main purpose of my account however was not to give a definitive account of the Trinity but rather to clarify terminology and thus show the difference between person and being. Of course, terminology can be refined and there is a constant theological debate about how to better describe personhood.
Conrau K,
Do you see any weaknesses in your account of the trinity given modern philosophical perspectives on essentialism, substance, nature and personhood?
30 Dec 09
Originally posted by Conrau K""No where does it say that the Holy Spirit cannot forgive; it says that sins against the Holy Spirit cannot be forgiven.[/b]""
Provide the texts and prove it. No where does it say that the Holy Spirit cannot forgive; it says that sins against the Holy Spirit cannot be forgiven.
I didn't say that.
So if one comments a sin against the Holy spirit that is an obvious sin and the person cannot be forgiven, then what do the other two parts of God do if that person ask them for forgiveness for that sin?
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30 Dec 09
Originally posted by galveston75I see. That was not actually your original claim. You said that the Holy Spirit cannot forgive what the other two can. Anyway, as it is traditionally interpreted, to blaspheme against the Holy Spirit is unforgivable because it rejects the source of forgiveness. Prayer happens by the power of the Holy Spirit, as St. Paul explains. So to reject the Holy Spirit means to deny oneself the possibility of any prayer of contrition. The words are usually taken metaphorically because God welcomes all penitent sinners.
""No where does it say that the Holy Spirit cannot forgive; it says that sins against the Holy Spirit cannot be forgiven.""
I didn't say that.
So if one comments a sin against the Holy spirit that is an obvious sin and the person cannot be forgiven, then what do the other two parts of God do if that person ask them for forgiveness for that sin?[/b]
30 Dec 09
1 edit
Originally posted by josephwstatements like that make me wonder if you read the Bible, for i have never heard anything like we are three in one, mind body and spirit, after having read and studied the bible for coming on fifteen years now.
[b]For example God told someone in the beginning; "Let's make man in our image." As far as I know there is nothing on this earth that is some type of a 3 in 1 being?
You are a 3 in 1 being. Body, soul, and spirit.
If it is true that there is a three in one God and all knowing and all powerful then it seems there would be some explination in the ...[text shortened]... umans what our God really is?
This statement makes me think you don't read the Bible.[/b]
30 Dec 09
Originally posted by Conrau KCol 2:8. 2Pet 1:20. There is no proof that this trinity doctrine which was thought up and formulated up by men and which there is no proof that they were commissioned by God in any way to add to the teachings of he Bible. Revelation 22:18,19 brings out to not add or take away from what the Bible says. And by adding this unexplainable man made tradition is a direct disobedient act to this command...
I see. That was not actually your original claim. You said that the Holy Spirit cannot forgive what the other two can. Anyway, as it is traditionally interpreted, to blaspheme against the Holy Spirit is unforgivable because it rejects the source of forgiveness. Prayer happens by the power of the Holy Spirit, as St. Paul explains. So to reject the Hol ...[text shortened]... ontrition. The words are usually taken metaphorically because God welcomes all penitent sinners.
30 Dec 09
Originally posted by robbie carrobie1 Thessalonians 5:23 - And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
statements like that make me wonder if you read the Bible, for i have never heard anything like we are three in one, mind body and spirit, after having read and studied the bible for coming on fifteen years now.
James 2:26 - For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
1 Corinthians 6:20 - For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.
I find it odd that you have never heard of this. It's not a stretch robbie. Throughout the Bible you will find many references as to the nature of our makeup. Heart, soul, body, mind, spirit, etc.
I won't pretend to know or completely understand all there is to know about anything the Bible teaches. As a matter of fact, after nearly thirty years, I could say, relatively speaking, I know less now than when I began.
For example. Consider these verses. Ephesians 3:16-19
That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
"... the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;.." of what? The love of Christ? The fulness of God? Christ indwelling?
30 Dec 09
"""I won't pretend to know or completely understand all there is to know about anything the Bible teaches. As a matter of fact, after nearly thirty years, I could say, relatively speaking, I know less now than when I began."""
Is this a good thing? Not knocking you my friend but listen to these scriptures:
Phil 1:9. Col 1:9. 1Tim 2:4. as opposed to 2Tim 3:7.
The one especially in Phil 1:9 says we should all have a complete understanding of what we believe.
Is your religion not feeding you spiritually so you can progress in knowledge? It should be...
30 Dec 09
Originally posted by galveston75You misunderstand.
"""I won't pretend to know or completely understand all there is to know about anything the Bible teaches. As a matter of fact, after nearly thirty years, I could say, relatively speaking, I know less now than when I began."""
Is this a good thing? Not knocking you my friend but listen to these scriptures:
Phil 1:9. Col 1:9. 1Tim 2:4. as opposed ...[text shortened]... ur religion not feeding you spiritually so you can progress in knowledge? It should be...
The idea is that the more one learns the more one learns how much they don't know.
One can know the truth, but still not know the full depth of that truth.
Like knowing God. God is infinite. The more one learns about God the more one learns there is more to learn about God.
But there is one thing. If one begins in error, then no matter how much one learns one still learns in error.
30 Dec 09
Originally posted by josephwI understand what you mean but as long as the trinity has been around now and from my years of talking to ones that believe it ,I can promise you that no new learning has been done as the answers I get now are no different then they were decades ago. It's still the fague and unexplainable anwers that I've always heard. And as always the final answers are, "it just a mystery of God's essance", which is a total cop out because the Bible was written "for man" from God to learn and have an accurate knowledge of the things written. No where in this gift is there supposed to be any mysteries of the basic truths as this is a very important guide to learn and follow his laws and commands to get us back to the life and world conditions that we lost. John 17:3 tells us that we need "accurate" and "true" knowledge to gain back this everlasting life.
You misunderstand.
The idea is that the more one learns the more one learns how much they don't know.
One can know the truth, but still not know the full depth of that truth.
Like knowing God. God is infinite. The more one learns about God the more one learns there is more to learn about God.
But there is one thing. If one begins in error, then no matter how much one learns one still learns in error.
The thought of the trinity is full of loop holes, pagan origins and no where taught in the Bible or by any of his followers in the Bible.
If you are anyone who really wants the truth of what all the verses that you say teach the trinity and would really do the needed research on such scriptures as what John 1:1 from an open heart, your accurate knowledge will start to grow.
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30 Dec 09
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Originally posted by galveston75Let us examine the verses:
Col 2:8. 2Pet 1:20. There is no proof that this trinity doctrine which was thought up and formulated up by men and which there is no proof that they were commissioned by God in any way to add to the teachings of he Bible. Revelation 22:18,19 brings out to not add or take away from what the Bible says. And by adding this unexplainable man made tradition is a direct disobedient act to this command...
1
For I want you to know how great a struggle I am having for you and for those in Laodicea 1 and all who have not seen me face to face,
2
that their hearts may be encouraged as they are brought together in love, to have all the richness of fully assured understanding, for the knowledge of the mystery of God, Christ,
3
in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.
4
2 I say this so that no one may deceive you by specious arguments.
5
For even if I am absent in the flesh, yet I am with you in spirit, rejoicing as I observe your good order and the firmness of your faith in Christ.
6
So, as you received Christ Jesus the Lord, walk in him,
7
rooted in him and built upon him and established in the faith as you were taught, abounding in thanksgiving.
8
See to it that no one captivate you with an empty, seductive philosophy according to human tradition, according to the elemental powers of the world 3 and not according to Christ.
9
For in him dwells the whole fullness of the deity 4 bodily,
10
and you share in this fullness in him, who is the head of every principality and powers
Col 2 1-10
20
12 Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation,
21
for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God.
Peter 1:20-21
18
I warn everyone who hears the prophetic words in this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book,
19
and if anyone takes away from the words in this prophetic book, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city described in this book.
Revelations 22:18-19
I have to say I am not sure of the relevance of all these verses. In the first case, St. Paul is exhorting the Colossians not to dabble in philosophies which lead them away from Christ; that faith in Christ takes priority over specious philosophies. How do Trinitarians disagree with that? Trintarians are only seeking to explain what is already in the Bible, statements like 'the Word was God,' 'The Father and I are one', 'baptise in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit' which point to an equality of persons in one God. In the second verses, St Peter is explaining the inspirations of all scripture, that it is the explicit will of God allowing no plurality. Again, Trinitarians do not disagree with that. I have no idea why you bring it up. The last verses are completely random. The author of Revelations is insisting on the completeness of the book of Revelations. No one disputes the canonicity of Revelations and it is not immediately clear how this bears on the discussion of the Trinity.
You seem to think that in claiming the Trinity, something is being added to the Bible. Again and again, I am telling you that Trinitarians only see it as an explanation of the Scriptures, not an imposition. In Col 2:9, St Paul says that the 'fullness of the deity' dwells in Jesus Christ and that Jesus Christ is the knowledge of God. What better affirmation is there of the divinity of Christ? In saying that Jesus is of one substance with the Father and that there are three persons in one substance, we are not adding something to the Bible but explaining in philosophical terms what is already there in the Bible, what it means to have the fullness of the deity dwelling bodily. We are not turning away from Jesus in seductive philosophies but using philosophy to explain difficult concepts in it.
I think it quite laughable that you take this scriptural high-ground as if all the JW's doctrines have an explicit scriptural basis. Where does it say that Jesus is the archangel Michael?
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30 Dec 09
Originally posted by galveston75How insulting. I have gone to some effort to explain what the Trinity means. What it means to be a person and what it means to be a substance.
I understand what you mean but as long as the trinity has been around now and from my years of talking to ones that believe it ,I can promise you that no new learning has been done as the answers I get now are no different then they were decades ago. It's still the fague and unexplainable anwers that I've always heard. And as always the final answers ar ...[text shortened]... ures as what John 1:1 from an open heart, your accurate knowledge will start to grow.
The thought of the trinity is full of loop holes, pagan origins and no where taught in the Bible or by any of his followers in the Bible.
Can you point out these loop holes, the pagan origins (I can at the same time point out many instances of pagans attacking the Trinitarian concept) and how it contradicts the Bible?
31 Dec 09
Originally posted by galveston75John 1:1
I understand what you mean but as long as the trinity has been around now and from my years of talking to ones that believe it ,I can promise you that no new learning has been done as the answers I get now are no different then they were decades ago. It's still the fague and unexplainable anwers that I've always heard. And as always the final answers ar ...[text shortened]... ures as what John 1:1 from an open heart, your accurate knowledge will start to grow.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Verse 14
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,..
02 Jan 10
2 edits
Originally posted by Conrau KIf you don't see the falseness of the trinity with all that's been said then I guess you never will...
How insulting. I have gone to some effort to explain what the Trinity means. What it means to be a person and what it means to be a substance.
[b]The thought of the trinity is full of loop holes, pagan origins and no where taught in the Bible or by any of his followers in the Bible.
Can you point out these loop holes, the pagan origins (I can at ...[text shortened]... ut many instances of pagans attacking the Trinitarian concept) and how it contradicts the Bible?[/b]
I keep bringing up the false teachings that Jesus told his followers to watch out for that would be brought into the congregations and no one here as addressed it yet. I guess no one can point out to me what they are.
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02 Jan 10
Originally posted by galveston75You take a very pessimistic attitude. Yes, Christ did prophecy that there would be false teachers; he also promised the Holy Spirit to guide and teach the Church so that his disciple would never be left alone. I cannot see how the Holy Spirit could have bungled it so badly that for the greater part of Christian history, Christians were beholden to paganism as you claim. If there are false teachers, then they are amongst the JWs who have not even reached their hundredth year yet claim to know the fullness of Christian revelation. That sounds exactly like false teachers.
If you don't see the falseness of the trinity with all that's been said then I guess you never will...
I keep bringing up the false teachings that Jesus told his followers to watch out for that would be brought into the congregations and no one here as addressed it yet. I guess no one can point out to me what they are.