02 Jan 10
Originally posted by Conrau KI've read your initial two posts several times and I'm not sure I understand the trinity any better than before. While some question have been answered, others have arisen.
The application of these to the Incarnation and Trinity:
The incarnation – since the doctrine of the incarnation arose historically before the doctrine of the Trinity, I will start with this. The doctrine of the incarnation states that Jesus Christ is both man and God, human and divine. Since to say something is a man means to say that thing has the esse ...[text shortened]... he internal relations of God act independently within creation -- which I myself cannot explain.
Let's take one statement from what you wrote:
"According to the Trinity, there is only one being: God. There is only one substance and nature, one mind and one will."
Are the "one substance and nature, one mind and one will" shared amongst God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit? Do Jesus or the Holy Spirit have a substance, nature, mind or will of their own?
02 Jan 10
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Originally posted by Conrau KHave you ever considered that the Holy spirit had nothing to do with the formulation of the trinity? The bible says that Satan keeps transforming himself into an angel of light. The trinity was never taught by Jesus but now after he was gone..it suddenly appears?
You take a very pessimistic attitude. Yes, Christ did prophecy that there would be false teachers; he also promised the Holy Spirit to guide and teach the Church so that his disciple would never be left alone. I cannot see how the Holy Spirit could have bungled it so badly that for the greater part of Christian history, Christians were beholden to paganism ...[text shortened]... yet claim to know the fullness of Christian revelation. That sounds exactly like false teachers.
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02 Jan 10
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Originally posted by ThinkOfOneAre the "one substance and nature, one mind and one will" shared amongst God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit?
I've read your initial two posts several times and I'm not sure I understand the trinity any better than before. While some question have been answered, others have arisen.
Let's take one statement from what you wrote:
"According to the Trinity, there is only one being: God. There is only one substance and nature, one mind and one will."
Are the " Spirit? Do Jesus or the Holy Spirit have a substance, nature, mind or will of their own?
There is only one mind and one will between the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The Son is image (Col 1:15), Word (John 1:1) and knowledge of the Father (Col 2:2). He is the Father known to himself and does not exercise a mind independent of the Father, just as a reflection does not move independently. The Holy Spirit is often called the holiness of God (if the Son is cognition, the knowledge of the Father, then the Holy Spirit is like recognition, the acknowledgment of good in the Father.) There is again no independent mind or will (the mistake, I think, is to assume that the person is the conscious self, distinct from the body, when in fact, this is really its nature.)
Are the "one substance and nature, one mind and one will" shared amongst God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit? Do Jesus or the Holy Spirit have a substance, nature, mind or will of their own?
Yes, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit have their own substance (the substance in the sense of essence, what defines them.) However their substance is only their relation. There remains only one being and one substance (in the sense of individual), but a three relations. What defines them is not being separate beings but separate relations. The Son as the Father known to himself and the Holy Spirit as the love between the Father and Son.
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02 Jan 10
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Originally posted by galveston75Have you ever considered that the Holy spirit had nothing to do with the formulation of the trinity?
Have you ever considered that the Holy spirit had nothing to do with the formulation of the trinity? The bible says that Satan keeps transforming himself into an angel of light. The trinity was never taught by Jesus but now after he was gone..it suddenly appears?
I have considered the possibility. But that would be absurd. Jesus promised the Holy Spirit to his Church and so, when the apostles appointed successors, why would the Holy Spirit abandon them only to reappear in the 20th century in America.
The bible says that Satan keeps transforming himself into an angel of light.
And what protects you from Satan? Perhaps he implanted strange ideas, like Jesus being an Archangel, to corrupt your religious fervor.
The trinity was never taught by Jesus but now after he was gone..it suddenly appears?
I have answered this again and again. It really was taught. Not in a tract form, like a theological textbook, but the essence of the Trinity is in the gospels -- when Jesus says 'I and the Father are one', 'I am the way, the truth and the light', 'I am the bread of life', when St. Thomas said 'My Lord and my God', when the priests thought that Jesus 'was equating himself with God', when the Pharisees believed that he was usurping God by forgiving sins. This is not explicit doctrinal formulation of the Trinity but it does point to it. All the doctrine of the Trinity does it explain what these verses mean.
02 Jan 10
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Originally posted by Conrau KThere is only one mind and one will between the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The Son is image (Col 1:15), Word (John 1:1) and knowledge of the Father (Col 2:2). He is the Father known to himself and does not exercise a mind independent of the Father, just as a reflection does not move independently. The Holy Spirit is often called the holiness of God (if the Son is cognition, the knowledge of the Father, then the Holy Spirit is like recognition, the acknowledgment of good in the Father.) There is again no independent mind or will (the mistake, I think, is to assume that the person is the conscious self, distinct from the body, when in fact, this is really its nature.)
[b]Are the "one substance and nature, one mind and one will" shared amongst God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit?
There is only one mind and one will between the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The Son is image (Col 1:15), Word (John 1:1) and knowledge of the Father (Col 2:2). He is the Father known to himself and does not exercise a mind independent of the n as the Father known to himself and the Holy Spirit as the love between the Father and Son.[/b]
There are times when Jesus does not seem to have the same mind and/or will as God. For example when Jesus prays in Gethsemane.
Mark 14:35-36
35 And He went a little beyond them, and fell to the ground and began to pray that if it were possible, the hour might pass Him by. 36 And He was saying, “Abba! Father! All things are possible for You; remove this cup from Me; yet not what I will, but what You will.”
Where does this fit?
Yes, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit have their own substance (the substance in the sense of essence, what defines them.) However their substance is only their relation. There remains only one being and one substance (in the sense of individual), but a three relations. What defines them is not being separate beings but separate relations. The Son as the Father known to himself and the Holy Spirit as the love between the Father and Son.
This is an area I didn't find clear at all. Even less clear with this explanation. I'll have to gnaw on this a while. One thing that is puzzling is that you describe all three as persons and personhood as a ‘subsistent relation’. You've described the relation that the Son and the Holy Spirit are, but what about God? God is the relation between what and what?
02 Jan 10
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Originally posted by Conrau KPerhaps he implanted strange ideas, like Jesus being an Archangel?????
[b]Have you ever considered that the Holy spirit had nothing to do with the formulation of the trinity?
I have considered the possibility. But that would be absurd. Jesus promised the Holy Spirit to his Church and so, when the apostles appointed successors, why would the Holy Spirit abandon them only to reappear in the 20th century in America.
[b s point to it. All the doctrine of the Trinity does it explain what these verses mean.[/b]
this strange idea as you term it, is entirely Biblically based, and as yet, i have yet to see a substantiated refutation of it, other than vague assertions like, 'you cannot build a doctrine from one isolated passage', which, in itself was absurd considering that more than one reference was given. who knows perhaps you can do better than 'strange ideas'?
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02 Jan 10
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Originally posted by ThinkOfOneWhere does this fit?
[b]There is only one mind and one will between the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The Son is image (Col 1:15), Word (John 1:1) and knowledge of the Father (Col 2:2). He is the Father known to himself and does not exercise a mind independent of the Father, just as a reflection does not move independently. The Holy Spirit is often called the holiness of God ( ...[text shortened]... Son and the Holy Spirit are, but what about God? God is the relation between what and what?[/b]
Firstly, there needs to be some clarification of names. The Son is co-eternal with the Father begotten before time; Jesus however is the Son incarnate born in time. There is not a one-to-one correspondence between Son and Jesus. Jesus is the Son incarnate, however, Jesus is also a man, of human nature. Consequently, the ecumenical councils declared that Jesus has both the divine will and mind but at the same time a human will and mind. So Jesus as man experienced doubt, pain and anguish. He had limited knowledge because the human mind is not infinite and he acquired knowledge like us (as St. Luke said 'He grew in wisdom and knowledge.)
One thing that is puzzling is that you describe all three as persons and personhood as a ‘subsistent relation’. You've described the relation that the Son and the Holy Spirit are, but what about God? God is the relation between what and what?
God is the Trinity. If we ask who is God, the answer is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. This is how it has been revealed to us in Scripture. Jesus Christ as the son and revelation of the Father and the Holy Spirit as the teacher and sanctifier.
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02 Jan 10
Originally posted by robbie carrobieHow then do you explain Hebrews 1 which clearly distinguishes Jesus from the angels:
Perhaps he implanted strange ideas, like Jesus being an Archangel?????
this strange idea as you term it, is entirely Biblically based, and as yet, i have yet to see a substantiated refutation of it, other than vague assertions like, 'you cannot build a doctrine from one isolated passage', which, in itself was absurd considering that more than one reference was given. who knows perhaps you can do better than 'strange ideas'?
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1 In times past, God spoke in partial and various ways to our ancestors through the prophets;
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in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,
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who is the refulgence of his glory, the very imprint of his being, and who sustains all things by his mighty word. When he had accomplished purification from sins, he took his seat at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
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as far superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs.
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2 For to which of the angels did God ever say: "You are my son; this day I have begotten you"? Or again: "I will be a father to him, and he shall be a son to me"?
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And again, when he leads 3 the first-born into the world, he says: "Let all the angels of God worship him."
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Of the angels he says: "He makes his angels winds and his ministers a fiery flame";
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but of the Son: "Your throne, O God, 4 stands forever and ever; and a righteous scepter is the scepter of your kingdom.
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You loved justice and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, anointed you with the oil of gladness above your companions";
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and: "At the beginning, O Lord, you established the earth, and the heavens are the works of your hands.
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They will perish, but you remain; and they will all grow old like a garment.
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You will roll them up like a cloak, and like a garment they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will have no end."
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But to which of the angels has he ever said: "Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies your footstool"?
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Are they not all ministering spirits sent to serve, for the sake of those who are to inherit salvation?
Again, this passage shows the Trinity. Jesus is not some created being. He is the image, word, knowledge of the Father, and 'imprint of his being'. He is a begotten being and as the imprint of God sharing in that same being with the Father.
02 Jan 10
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Originally posted by Conrau Kplease you did not need to resort to this type of sensationalistic journalism, i have more respect for you than that Conrau.
How then do you explain Hebrews 1 which clearly distinguishes Jesus from the angels:
[quote]1
1 In times past, God spoke in partial and various ways to our ancestors through the prophets;
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in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,
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who is the refulgence o tten being and as the imprint of God sharing in that same being with the Father.
this passage is of course far removed from your assertions, for an image is not the same as the real thing, for example i may be the 'spitting image', of my father, however i am certainly a distinct entity, am i not? yes Christ is distinct from the other created beings, he is the only thing directly created by God, that is why he is referred to as the 'only begotten', son, perhaps you were unaware that angels are also termed as sons? who can tell.
Again there is no mention of the holy spirit, i wonder why, was he away, busy, on holiday somewhere else? why is Christ not sitting on the throne himself if he is God? Is he talking to himself when he states sit at my right hand? Does God talk to himself in this way? these are just some of the thoughts from the top of my head, but i tell you in all honesty,you cannot establish the trinity Biblically, for it is quite clearly, a non Biblical doctrine, that is why my dear friend, you needed to have recourse to definitions of terms and philosophical arguments.
as Galvo has shown, there are many events which neither the angels of heaven know, nor the son, but they are only in the jurisdiction of the father? why should this be Conrau, if Christ is God? Is he not telling himself something that he knows already? Christ as pointed out by Raj, has a head, that being God, the principle of headship being outlined in the book of Ephesians, yet quite clearly, God is without parallel. there are literally hundreds of references which can be utilised to dispense with the myth, and very few which may be construed to support it.
Neither Paul nor Christ made any reference to the trinity, it was unknown to them.
02 Jan 10
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Originally posted by Conrau KIf Jesus is not the Son, then is Jesus not part of the trinity? If Jesus is not part of the trinity, then is Jesus not divine? If Jesus is divine, how is He not a manifestation of the Son?
[b]Where does this fit?
Firstly, there needs to be some clarification of names. The Son is co-eternal with the Father begotten before time; Jesus however is the Son incarnate born in time. There is not a one-to-one correspondence between Son and Jesus. Jesus is the Son incarnate, however, Jesus is also a man, of human nature. Consequent ist as the son and revelation of the Father and the Holy Spirit as the teacher and sanctifier.[/b]
Is God not the Father as Jesus is not the Son? Don't we then have the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit and God? With the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit and God all being persons? In your explanation of the Trinity you said, "The Father is the source of existence and the first person of the Trinity." Doesn't that leave us with four persons total? And what is the 'subsistent relation' that is the Father?
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02 Jan 10
Originally posted by robbie carrobieplease you did not need to resort to this type of sensationalistic journalism, i have more respect for you than that Conrau.
please you did not need to resort to this type of sensationalistic journalism, i have more respect for you than that Conrau.
this passage is of course far removed from your assertions, for an image is not the same as the real thing, for example i may be the 'spitting image', of my father, however i am certainly a distinct entity, am i not? yes C ...[text shortened]... rt it.
Neither Paul nor Christ made any reference to the trinity, it was unknown to them.
You could at least answer the question however. How can Jesus be the archangel Michael if, as Hebrews argues, Jesus is above all angels?
this passage is of course far removed from your assertions, for an image is not the same as the real thing, for example i may be the 'spitting image', of my father, however i am certainly a distinct entity, am i not? yes Christ is distinct from the other created beings, he is the only thing directly created by God, that is why he is referred to as the 'only begotten', son, perhaps you were unaware that angels are also termed as sons? who can tell.
Well, there has to be an explanation of what it means to be the image of another being. I would say that the property of similitude is at the heart of it. An image is only an image in so far as it preserves the shape and features of another. In some substantive way, the image has to be the same as what it images. So what defines the Father? His will, his power, his majesty and glory. In all these things the Son must be the same in order to qualify as an image of the Father. If so, then the Son is God and in being these things, the Son has the same nature and substance as the Father. Since the Son is the image, he cannot be the Father, yet being the same as the Father, he must be in one being.
The angels are sons just as we are sons. We are sons because God is our creator and because we are adopted by the Father through the Son (Gal 3:26).
Again there is no mention of the holy spirit, i wonder why, was he away, busy, on holiday somewhere else? why is Christ not sitting on the throne himself if he is God? Is he talking to himself when he states sit at my right hand? Does God talk to himself in this way? these are just some of the thoughts from the top of my head, but i tell you in all honesty,you cannot establish the trinity Biblically, for it is quite clearly, a non Biblical doctrine, that is why my dear friend, you needed to have recourse to definitions of terms and philosophical arguments.
You seem to think that since I affirm the divinity of Christ and the Holy Spirit I believe that they are exactly the same. Yet Trinitarian theology is only Trinitarian because it recognises these as different. The Son is preeminent in creation because it was only by him that the world was created; it is the Son who redeems creation. The Holy Spirit is preeminent in sanctity. The Holy Spirit teaches and aids the apostles and sanctifies them with gifts. The Holy Spirit is not raised onto a throne because that is not the role of the Holy Spirit.
as Galvo has shown, there are many events which neither the angels of heaven know, nor the son, but they are only in the jurisdiction of the father? why should this be Conrau, if Christ is God? Is he not telling himself something that he knows already? Christ as pointed out by Raj, has a head, that being God, the principle of headship being outlined in the book of Ephesians, yet quite clearly, God is without parallel. there are literally hundreds of references which can be utilised to dispense with the myth, and very few which may be construed to support it.
But Trinitarian theology affirms that Jesus' knowledge was limited. In fact, it was dogmatically declared. Jesus had a human and divine mind and his human mind developed naturally by experience ('he grew in knowledge and wisdom' as St. Luke writes). For this reason, Jesus said 'The Father is greater than I' and St. Paul wrote 'The head of Christ is God'. Of course, if the divine will and mind dominated Christ,who was too a man, then God was always his head. Trinitarians would point out the abundant evidence of the Trinity: Jesus saying 'The Father and I are one', or St. Thomas saying 'My Lord and my God', the priests accusing Jesus of 'making himself equal with God.' St. Paul also says that 'the fullness of the deity dwelt bodily' in Jesus Christ. The fullness.
Neither Paul nor Christ made any reference to the trinity, it was unknown to them.
I know. I don't see that as problematic. As I explained before, I do not see Jesus' role as a philosopher or tract-writer. If Jesus were to formulate the Trinity as 'One being in three persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit', it would not have been understood. Yet the NT gives plenty of evidence of the Trinity, just not in explicit doctrinal formulas.
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02 Jan 10
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneIf Jesus is not the Son, then is Jesus not part of the trinity? If Jesus is not part of the trinity, then is Jesus not divine? If Jesus is divine, how is He not a manifestation of the Son?
If Jesus is not the Son, then is Jesus not part of the trinity? If Jesus is not part of the trinity, then is Jesus not divine? If Jesus is divine, how is He not a manifestation of the Son?
Is God not the Father as Jesus is not the Son? Don't we then have the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit and God? With the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit and God all ...[text shortened]... eave us with four persons total? And what is the 'subsistent relation' that is the Father?
Jesus is the Son and a man. As I explained in my first post, this means that Jesus had to have the human essence, a human body, human soul and human mind. What Jesus knew in his human mind, he gained either from experience or from revelation from the divine mind. Jesus in his divine nature is divine and is the second person of the Trinity; Jesus in his human nature however is not divine and not a member of the Trinity.
Is God not the Father as Jesus is not the Son? Don't we then have the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit and God? With the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit and God all being persons? In your explanation of the Trinity you said, "The Father is the source of existence and the first person of the Trinity." Doesn't that leave us with four persons total? And what is the 'subsistent relation' that is the Father?
No, only three. the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are God. 'God' is not some separate person. God in nature is omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, true, happy and infinite; in person, God is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
02 Jan 10
3 edits
Originally posted by Conrau KJesus is the Son and a man. As I explained in my first post, this means that Jesus had to have the human essence, a human body, human soul and human mind. What Jesus knew in his human mind, he gained either from experience or from revelation from the divine mind. Jesus in his divine nature is divine and is the second person of the Trinity; Jesus in his human nature however is not divine and not a member of the Trinity.
[b]If Jesus is not the Son, then is Jesus not part of the trinity? If Jesus is not part of the trinity, then is Jesus not divine? If Jesus is divine, how is He not a manifestation of the Son?
Jesus is the Son and a man. As I explained in my first post, this means that Jesus had to have the human essence, a human body, human soul and human mind mnipresent, true, happy and infinite; in person, God is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.[/b]
In your second post you said, "The incarnation further means that Jesus has two minds, one human and one divine, and two wills, one human and one divine (although always in perfect conformity.)" If they are always in perfect conformity, how is it that "Jesus does not seem to have the same mind and/or will as God?" If in His incarnation, Jesus is not aware of His divine mind, how is He not a manifestation? If Jesus does not have the same mind and/or will as God, how is it that Jesus never sinned? Or does Catholicism not buy into the idea that because of man's "fallen nature" it is impossible for a human not to sin?
No, only three. the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are God. 'God' is not some separate person. God in nature is omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, true, happy and infinite; in person, God is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
Once again, what is the 'subsistent relation' that is the Father? How can God simultaneously be both "not some separate person" and "in person, God is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit"? Isn't the relation between the three a different relation than each of relations of which it is comprised?
02 Jan 10
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because an arch angel IS above all angels, that is why it is termed as an archangel meaning chief or foremost. There is only one biblical reference of an angel being termed archangel, which is in the singular indicating that there is only one, and with reference to Michael! perhaps you would like to elaborate on who or what Michael was or is? there are many references.
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02 Jan 10
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Originally posted by robbie carrobiebecause an arch angel IS above all angels, that is why it is termed as an archangel meaning chief or foremost. There is only one biblical reference of an angel being termed archangel, which is in the singular indicating that there is only one, and with reference to Michael! perhaps you would like to elaborate on who or what Michael was or is? there are many references.
[b]because an arch angel IS above all angels, that is why it is termed as an archangel meaning chief or foremost. There is only one biblical reference of an angel being termed archangel, which is in the singular indicating that there is only one, and with reference to Michael! perhaps you would like to elaborate on who or what Michael was or is? there are many references.[/b]
Sure. The Archangel Michael is preeminent of all the angels, designated by his status as 'archangel'. But Hebrews 1 clearly recognises Jesus above any angel, whether sepraphim, cherubim, archangel or mere angel. Furthermore, it commands the worship of Jesus, "Let all the angels of God worship him." This is an idea repeated in Revelations 5:
I looked again and heard the voices of many angels who surrounded the throne and the living creatures and the elders. They were countless 5 in number,
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and they cried out in a loud voice: "Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches, wisdom and strength, honor and glory and blessing."
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Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, everything in the universe, cry out: "To the one who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor, glory and might, forever and ever."
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The four living creatures answered, "Amen," and the elders fell down and worshiped.
Revelations states that every creature worshiped Jesus. Jesus is regarded as something other than a creature and created being; he is seen as an object of worship which is prescribed only for God; and he is clearly distinguished from the angels. Also, no one ever prays to the angels, yet St Stephen prays to Jesus (Acts 7:59). It is hypocrisy that you demand me to give explicit evidence of the Trinity in the gospels or writings of the Apostles, but you cannot give such explicit evidence -- a clear and unambiguous statement that Jesus is the Archangel Michael.