Trinitarian terminology

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
[b]Jesus is the Son and a man. As I explained in my first post, this means that Jesus had to have the human essence, a human body, human soul and human mind. What Jesus knew in his human mind, he gained either from experience or from revelation from the divine mind. Jesus in his divine nature is divine and is the second person of the Trinity; Jesus in his the three a different relation than each of relations of which it is comprised?[/b]

Originally posted by Conrau K
[b]In your second post you said, "The incarnation further means that Jesus has two minds, one human and one divine, and two wills, one human and one divine (although always in perfect conformity.)" If they are always in perfect conformity, how is it that "Jesus does not seem to have the same mind and/or will as God?" If in His incarnation, Jesus is not awar ...[text shortened]... from which the Holy Spirit proceeds). There are no other relations possible.

Originally posted by galveston75
Just wondering if you can explain 1Cor 15: 23-28 for me?

Originally posted by Conrau K
Hate to use a cliche, but doesn't it speak for itself?

Originally posted by galveston75
So how does the trinity fit here?

Originally posted by Conrau K
The Father is God preeminently. The Son and Holy Spirit are God by procession, as God's act of knowing and loving. All creation fundamentally belongs to the Father who is the originator of everything. It was created through the Son and sanctified by the Holy Spirit but always belonging to the Father.

ThinkOfOne
Sorry to but in but I noticed this question:
Or does Catholicism not buy into the idea that because of man's "fallen nature" it is impossible for a human not to sin?

I think the following syllogism is compatible with Catholicism:

1) Jesus was fully human,
2) Jesus did not share in the effects of original sin,
3) therefore original sin cannot be essential to humanity.

yes Christ is above every other angel or Gods sons, that's the point Paul was making, i thought that would be obvious, it begs belief, that you would try to construe, a letter, written to Hebrews, with full acceptance of the oneness of God, and then claim that Paul was speaking of the trinity?

you have as yet still failed to identify Michael, mentioned in both the Hebrew scriptures and the Greek, for this point stands out, that you have, of necessity, limited your exegesis, to the Greek portion of scripture, for not one iota can be found in the Hebrew portion, and that my friend is taking things entirely out of context, but such is the nature of this doctrine, that to establish it, all sorts of 'strange', paths must be trod.

as for worship, it is well understood, that it means to pay homage to or to hold in reverence, and why would anyone not like to honour or pay homage to Christ, for he is clearly an outstanding individual, moreover, i think Christ's own words should be used to dispel this line of reasoning,

(Matthew 4:10) . . .Then Jesus said to him: “Go away, Satan! For it is written, ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’”

quoting from Deuteronomy 10:20

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
yes Christ is above every other angel or Gods sons, that's the point Paul was making, i thought that would be obvious, it begs belief, that you would try to construe, a letter, written to Hebrews, with full acceptance of the oneness of God, and then claim that Paul was speaking of the trinity?

you have as yet still failed to identify Michael, me t is to him [b]alone you must render sacred service.’”

quoting from Deuteronomy 10:20[/b]

Originally posted by Conrau K
[b]yes Christ is above every other angel or Gods sons, that's the point Paul was making, i thought that would be obvious, it begs belief, that you would try to construe, a letter, written to Hebrews, with full acceptance of the oneness of God, and then claim that Paul was speaking of the trinity?

I accept the oneness of God. One mind, one will, one John for doing the same to him. It is quite clear, they use the word worship.[/b]

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
it is quite clear that Hebrews does nothing of the sort, the only thing that points to Christ being God, Conrau, is your exegesis, not the Bible, and please we are not so much children that we are unable to distinguish the difference.

Christ is every sense of the word is subservient to the father, these references to these verses, like your attemp ...[text shortened]... ures speak to us, objectively. This has been my experience and I tell it to you in all honesty.

Originally posted by Conrau K
Again, I brought up Hebrews 1 not to discuss the Trinity but to show that Jesus is not an angel. I have asked you to provide some justification for the belief that Jesus is an archangel. Since you impose such strict exegetical standards on me, it is only fitting that you abide by those same standards.

[b]it is quite clear that Hebrews does nothing of th ...[text shortened]... conflating homage and worship; you are simply assuming a distinction when none is made.

all these arguments are old hat Conrau, each and everyone has a biblically based counter argument, yes Christ is the Word, yes Christ is divine, yes Christ is a mighty God, eternal father , prince of peace, yes Christ and the father are one, but then in the very same chapter, so are the disciples, and so it goes on and on. The fact of the matter is that he is never ever ever ever ever, in the entire biblical cannon , termed Almighty God, never! you people must get over that fact!

seeing that you are fond of definitions, i suggest that you read this,

WORSHIP

The rendering of reverent honor or homage.

Hebrew and Greek Terms. Most Hebrew and Greek words that can denote worship can also be applied to acts other than worship. However, the context determines in what way the respective words are to be understood.

One of the Hebrew words conveying the idea of worship (avadh) basically means “serve.” (Ge 14:4; 15:13; 29:15) Serving or worshiping Jehovah required obedience to all of his commands, doing his will as a person exclusively devoted to him. (Ex 19:5; De 30:15-20; Jos 24:14, 15) Therefore, for an individual to engage in any ritual or act of devotion toward any other gods signified his abandoning true worship.—De 11:13-17; Jg 3:6, 7.

Another Hebrew term that can denote worship is hishtachawah, which primarily means “bow down” (Pr 12:25), or do obeisance. Whereas such bowing could at times simply be an act of respect or of courteous regard toward another person (Ge 19:1, 2; 33:1-6; 37:9, 10), it could also be an expression of worship, indicating ones reverence and gratitude to God and submission to his will. When used with reference to the true God or false deities, the word hishtachawah is at times associated with sacrifice and prayer. (Ge 22:5-7; 24:26, 27; Isa 44:17) This would indicate that it was common to bow down when praying or offering sacrifice.

The Hebrew root saghadh (Isa 44:15, 17, 19; 46:6) basically signifies “prostrate oneself.” The Aramaic equivalent is usually associated with worship (Da 3:5-7, 10-15, 18, 28), but it is used at Daniel 2:46 to refer to King Nebuchadnezzar’s paying homage to Daniel, prostrating himself before the prophet.

The Greek verb latreuo (Lu 1:74; 2:37; 4:8; Ac 7:7) and the noun latreia (Joh 16:2; Ro 9:4) convey the idea of rendering not merely an ordinary, mundane service but sacred service.

The Greek word proskyneo corresponds closely to the Hebrew term hishtachawah in expressing the thought of obeisance and, at times, worship. The term proskyneo is used in connection with a slave’s doing obeisance to a king (Mt 18:26) as well as the act Satan stipulated when he offered Jesus all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. (Mt 4:8, 9) Had he done obeisance to the Devil, Jesus would thereby have signified submission to Satan and made himself the Devil’s servant. But Jesus refused, saying: “Go away, Satan! For it is written, ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship [form of Gr. proskyneo or, in the Deuteronomy account that Jesus was quoting, Hebrew. hishtachawah], and it is to him alone you must render sacred service [form of Gr. latreuo or Heb. avadh].’” (Mt 4:10; De 5:9; 6:13)

Similarly, worship, obeisance, or bowing down to “the wild beast” and its “image” is linked with service, for the worshipers are identified as supporters of “the wild beast” and its “image” by having a mark either on the hand (with which one serves) or on the forehead (for all to see). Since the Devil gives the wild beast its authority, worshiping the wild beast means, in reality, worshiping or serving the Devil.—Re 13:4, 15-17; 14:9-11.

Other Greek words associated with worship are drawn from eusebeo, threskeuo, and sebomai. The word eusebeo means “give godly devotion to” or “venerate, revere.” At Acts 17:23 this term is used with reference to the godly devotion or veneration that the men of Athens were giving to an “Unknown God.” From threskeuo comes the noun threskeia, understood to designate a “form of worship,” whether true or false. (Ac 26:5; Col 2:18) The true worship practiced by Christians was marked by genuine concern for the poor and complete separateness from the ungodly world. (Jas 1:26, 27) The word sebomai (Mt 15:9; Mr 7:7; Ac 18:7; 19:27) and the related term sebazomai (Ro 1:25) mean “revere; venerate; worship.” Objects of worship or of devotion are designated by the noun sebasma. (Ac 17:23; 2Th 2:4) Two other terms are from the same verb stem, with the prefix Theos, God. These are theosebes′, meaning “God-revering” (Joh 9:31), and theosebeia, denoting “reverence of God.” (1Ti 2:10) These two terms correspond somewhat to the German word for “public worship,” namely, Gottesdienst (a combination of “God” and “service&rdquo😉.

citing a one dimensional point of view point, with a one dimensional English word from hand picked scriptures is hardly being objective is it? nor surprising, for both Epi, Jaywill and other trinitarians have tried the same tract and i tire of it.

Obeisance to the glorified Jesus Christ.

On the other hand, Christ Jesus has been exalted by his Father to a position second only to God, so that “in the name of Jesus every knee should bend of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground, and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.” (Php 2:9-11; compare Da 7:13, 14, 27.) Hebrews 1:6 also shows that even the angels render obeisance to the resurrected Jesus Christ. Many translations of this text here render proskyneo as “worship,” while some render it by such expressions as “bow before” (AT; Yg) and ‘pay homage’ (NE).

No matter what English term is used, the original Greek remains the same and the understanding of what it is that the angels render to Christ must accord with the rest of the Scriptures. Jesus himself emphatically stated to Satan that “it is Jehovah your God you must worship [form of proskyneo], and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.” (Mt 4:8-10; Lu 4:7, 8)

Similarly, the angel(s) told John to “worship God” (Re 19:10; 22:9), and this injunction came after Jesus resurrection and exaltation, showing that matters had not changed in this regard. True, Psalm 97, which the apostle evidently quotes at Hebrews 1:6, refers to Jehovah God as the object of the ‘bowing down,’ and still this text was applied to Christ Jesus. (Ps 97:1, 7) However, the apostle previously had shown that the resurrected Christ is “the reflection of Gods glory and the exact representation of his very being.” (Heb 1:1-3) Hence, if what we understand as “worship” is apparently directed to the Son by angels, it is in reality being directed through him to God, the Sovereign Ruler, “the One who made the heaven and the earth and sea and fountains of waters.” (Re 14:7; 4:10, 11; 7:11, 12; 11:16, 17; compare 1Ch 29:20; Re 5:13, 14; 21:22.)

On the other hand, the renderings “bow before” and ‘pay homage’ (instead of “worship&rdquo😉 are in no way out of harmony with the original language, either the Hebrew of Psalm 97:7 or the Greek of Hebrews 1:6, for such translations convey the basic sense of both hishtachawah; and proskyneo.

AT: An American translation
Yg : Youngs translations
Ne : English translation

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
all these arguments are old hat Conrau, each and everyone has a biblically based counter argument, yes Christ is the Word, yes Christ is divine, yes Christ is a mighty God, eternal father , prince of peace, yes Christ and the father are one, but then in the very same chapter, so are the disciples, and so it goes on and on. The fact of the matter is ...[text shortened]... rising, for both Epi, Jaywill and other trinitarians have tried the same tract and i tire of it.