trinity revisited (for my own sake)

Originally posted by duecer
you again fail to realize the very nature of the trinity. you think that it 3 distinct beings, trinitarians never make that claim, yet you claim there are 2 Gods, God the father and god the son, The bible says there is one God and Jehovah (or there abouts) is his name.
You cited the passages not I, I simply pointed out the error in your logic. if you read in le for patch of ground to farm for eternity, when you can spend eternity in heaven with Christ?

I think it's so sad when the ones that believe the Trinity never really quite know where Jehovah's name fits into this triune god. So very sad.
And no I will not make the mistake of opening up myself to be tricked by a pagan belief that came from ancient religions. Opening oneself up to falsehoods is what got Eve and then Adam into trouble.
I totaly understand the concept of it but it's funny that even in the religions that believe in it, they are confused when it comes down to the bottom line and never really agree how it works. What your saying here I've heard and seen it all my life.

Originally posted by galveston75
I think it's so sad when the ones that believe the Trinity never really quite know where Jehovah's name fits into this triune god. So very sad.
And no I will not make the mistake of opening up myself to be tricked by a pagan belief that came from ancient religions. Opening oneself up to falsehoods is what got Eve and then Adam into trouble.
I tota ...[text shortened]... d never really agree how it works. What your saying here I've heard and seen it all my life.

Matthew 10: 32 “Everyone who acknowledges me publicly here on earth, I will also acknowledge before my Father in heaven. 33 But everyone who denies me here on earth, I will also deny before my Father in heaven.

34 “Don’t imagine that I came to bring peace to the earth! I came not to bring peace, but a sword.

35 ‘I have come to set a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.
36 Your enemies will be right in your own household!’[l]

37 “If you love your father or mother more than you love me, you are not worthy of being mine; or if you love your son or daughter more than me, you are not worthy of being mine. 38 If you refuse to take up your cross and follow me, you are not worthy of being mine. 39 If you cling to your life, you will lose it; but if you give up your life for me, you will find it.

40 “Anyone who receives you receives me, and anyone who receives me receives the Father who sent me. 41 If you receive a prophet as one who speaks for God,[m] you will be given the same reward as a prophet. And if you receive righteous people because of their righteousness, you will be given a reward like theirs. 42 And if you give even a cup of cold water to one of the least of my followers, you will surely be rewarded.”


you are being lied to and it will cost you an eternity my friend, think on that while you lay your head on your pillow tonight.

Originally posted by galveston75
I think it's so sad when the ones that believe the Trinity never really quite know where Jehovah's name fits into this triune god. So very sad.
And no I will not make the mistake of opening up myself to be tricked by a pagan belief that came from ancient religions. Opening oneself up to falsehoods is what got Eve and then Adam into trouble.
I tota ...[text shortened]... d never really agree how it works. What your saying here I've heard and seen it all my life.

I will ask this again, because I don't believe I recieved an answer the last time.

If Jesus created the universe and everything in it, is he not our God even though you think that the Father "birthed" him? If we are his creation, he is our God.

Originally posted by whodey
I will ask this again, because I don't believe I recieved an answer the last time.

If Jesus created the universe and everything in it, is he not our God even though you think that the Father "birthed" him? If we are his creation, he is our God.

Don't you read the scriptures that explain all these questions your asking? No understanding of them at all? I didn't write the Bible and so I'm not making this stuff up. It's right before your eyes in black and white but yet you act like there not there......
I'm not being sarcastic, honestly, but I've never seen this scripture so fulfield as it is now. 2Cor 4:4. In case you don't see this it is satan it's talking about.

Originally posted by galveston75
Don't you read the scriptures that explain all these questions your asking? No understanding of them at all? I didn't write the Bible and so I'm not making this stuff up. It's right before your eyes in black and white but yet you act like there not there......
I'm not being sarcastic, honestly, but I've never seen this scripture so fulfield as it is now. 2Cor 4:4. In case you don't see this it is satan it's talking about.

4 Satan, who is the god of this world, has blinded the minds of those who don’t believe. They are unable to see the glorious light of the Good News. They don’t understand this message about the glory of Christ, who is the exact likeness of God.

LOL the irony of your post is palpable

Originally posted by duecer
4 Satan, who is the god of this world, has blinded the minds of those who don’t believe. They are unable to see the glorious light of the Good News. They don’t understand this message about the glory of Christ, who is the exact likeness of God.

LOL the irony of your post is palpable

OK my friend. I only hope that the light that gets brighter as the bible says will find you. Thanks...

Originally posted by galveston75
OK my friend. I only hope that the light that gets brighter as the bible says will find you. Thanks...

They don’t understand this message about the glory of Christ, who is the exact likeness of God.

Originally posted by galveston75
Don't you read the scriptures that explain all these questions your asking? No understanding of them at all? I didn't write the Bible and so I'm not making this stuff up. It's right before your eyes in black and white but yet you act like there not there......
I'm not being sarcastic, honestly, but I've never seen this scripture so fulfield as it is now. 2Cor 4:4. In case you don't see this it is satan it's talking about.

So your answer to me is that satan has blinded my heart?

Originally posted by galveston75
OK my friend. I only hope that the light that gets brighter as the bible says will find you. Thanks...

Ok, so my other question is this, do you think that God literally birthed Jesus or is this in reference to Mary birthing him?

Originally posted by whodey
I will ask this again, because I don't believe I recieved an answer the last time.

If Jesus created the universe and everything in it, is he not our God even though you think that the Father "birthed" him? If we are his creation, he is our God.

our understanding of scripture is quite clear, that the Christ was a co worker with the Father. that the Christ was a created entity is without doubt. colossians 1:15, 'the first born of all creation', thus before the universe, the creation of the Angels etc Christ was the only entity directly created by God, this is why he is termed Gods only begotten son, all other things in heaven and on earth having been created through Christ, including the physical universe. this is clear, accurate and precise and according to the Bible.

there is also a very interesting account in the book of proverbs which further emphasises this biblical idea, that Christ was a co worker with God in the creation of all things.

(Proverbs 8:22-31) . . .“Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago.  From time indefinite (a) I was installed, from the start, from times earlier than the earth. . . . . . then I came to be beside him as a master worker (b), and I came to be the one he was specially fond of day by day, I being glad before him all the time,  being glad at the productive land of his earth, and the things I was fond of were with the sons of men(c).

yes it is talking about the personification of wisdom, but there are also other noteworthy parallels to the Christ.

please note:

(a) (Micah 5:2) . . .“And you, O Bethlehem Ephrathah, the one too little to get to be among the thousands of Judah, from you there will come out to me the one who is to become ruler in Israel, whose origin is from early times, from the days of time indefinite.

(b) (Genesis 1:26) And God went on to say: “Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness, and let them have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and the domestic animals and all the earth and every moving animal that is moving upon the earth.”

(John 1:3) All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence. What has come into existence

(John 17:5) So now you, Father, glorify me alongside yourself with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was.

(Colossians 1:16) because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All other things have been created through him and for him.

(c) (John 3:16) “For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life.

(John 13:1) Now, because he knew before the festival of the passover that his hour had come for him to move out of this world to the Father, Jesus, having loved his own that were in the world, loved them to the end

I apologise for the length of the text, however sometimes a comprehensive array of cross-references is need to completely establish the point. Why your assertion that this should make him our God, i have no idea.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
our understanding of scripture is quite clear, that the Christ was a co worker with the Father. that the Christ was a created entity is without doubt. colossians 1:15, 'the first born of all creation', thus before the universe, the creation of the Angels etc Christ was the only entity directly created by God, this is why he is termed Gods only bego ...[text shortened]... ly establish the point. Why your assertion that this should make him our God, i have no idea.

more scriptural ping pong, I have already debunked your claims on all these refernces....try again.

The problem of understanding arises when one isn't allowed to question beliefs for fear of eternal punishment, or earthly censure. I would ask one more time, who in the WTS lays claim to an advanced degree in ancient languages, theology, or divinty?

Originally posted by duecer
more scriptural ping pong, I have already debunked your claims on all these refernces....try again.

The problem of understanding arises when one isn't allowed to question beliefs for fear of eternal punishment, or earthly censure. I would ask one more time, who in the WTS lays claim to an advanced degree in ancient languages, theology, or divinty?

excuse me, you have done nothing of the sort, it was pointed out to you, that in every single reference before collosians 1:15 the reference to the first born was as in the first progeny of a family, we are not buying your trinitarian jar of Christianity that it some how suddenly changes with the crazy assertion that it is with reference to a position, no way Deucer, go back to Robbies Sunday school for the truth seeker and learn the real meaning. the proverbs confirm this, the cross references confirm this, Robbie and Gavelstone the Jedi knights 1 Deucer and the dark side of the force 0!

as for the WT Bible and tract society of Pennsylvania incorporated, why dont you write to them and ask them.

as for Gavelstone and I, we don't need badges, we are ordained ministers of the most High!

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
excuse me, you have done nothing of the sort, it was pointed out to you, that in every single reference before collosians 1:15 the reference to the first born was as in the first progeny of a family, we are not buying your trinitarian jar of Christianity that it some how suddenly changes with the crazy assertion that it is with reference to a positi ...[text shortened]... .

as for Gavelstone and I, we don't need badges, we are ordained ministers of the most High!

there are now over 130 posts here robbie, try reading back, even Raj admitted that I thrashed you in this debate, and he isn't even Christian and tends to side with you. I won this argument, you continue to trot out cherry picked verses that you misinterpret or take out of context, all the while failing to even understand how the trinity is defined vs your dualist theology claiming there are 2 Gods instead of one. suck it up.

as for Gavelstone and I, we don't need badges, we are ordained ministers of the most High![/b]

so you admit that you are uneducated, well that's a start. When you can get around to admitting that the WTS doesn't allow "ministers" to get advanced degrees in any of the afore mentioned subjects, you will be closer to the truth.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
[b]excuse me, you have done nothing of the sort, it was pointed out to you, that in every single reference before collosians 1:15 the reference to the first born was as in the first progeny of a family,

hahahahahahaha! LOL! I fully discredited that argument.


edit: since you didn't bother to read it the first time here it is again: The term first born is a transferable title, and has less to do with order and more to do with pre-eminance, especially in the usage applied here. In Psalm 89:20, 27 it says, "I have found David My servant; with My holy oil I have anointed him...I also shall make him My first-born"
The Greek for "firstborn" is proto with tikto which would give us "firstborn" and that is what we find here in Colossians 1:15. The Greek for "first created" would be proto with ktizo and it is not used here.
The passage as cited does not support your claim under the light of proper exegetical examination.