03 Oct 10
Originally posted by robbie carrobieYou'll know he'll say these statements or forged or misprints or their from people who were drunkards or really didn't exist....Maybe they we aliens or something like that to just plain argue any evidence that's shown to him
i am not in fact saying that preaching and teaching is the same thing, why you have formed this opinion, i do not know.
As for all Christians being engaged in the preaching and teaching work, i asked for evidence to the contrary, i see none.
As for historical evidence that ALL were preachers and teachers, consider the following,
Celsus, t ...[text shortened]... privilege of certain ranks of the ministry.”
that is before we even touch the inspired text.
But a point I'd like to make is the Bible makes it very clear that knowledge of the Bible is what can lead to life. John 17:3.
And we are told to be adequately qualified with knowledge to do this teaching work 2 Tim 2:2.
There are many scriptures that speak of this teaching work and having the knowledge to teach others. So if we are really Christian it is our obligation to use this knowledge to teach others and not just sit back and not use it or only use it just whenever the opportunity might just accidently happen.
There are millions of life's at stake and why anyone would not use this opportunity to help others to learn about God and what the future holds both bad and good makes no sense to not want to help others in the most important way and that is spiritually with knowledge.
03 Oct 10
1 edit
Originally posted by galveston75yes i know, our friend can be a little slippery! He seems to equate the appointing of certain persons to look after the apportion of food to needy widows as a pretence for not preaching, simply because the apostles themselves did so, so that they could spend more time teaching and preaching. How this has any relevance whatsoever on the scriptures that you cite, the historical evidence, the example of Christ and the first century Christians, i have no idea.
You'll know he'll say these statements or forged or misprints or their from people who were drunkards or really didn't exist....Maybe they we aliens or something like that to just plain argue any evidence that's shown to him
But a point I'd like to make is the Bible makes it very clear that knowledge of the Bible is what can lead to life. John 17:3.
not want to help others in the most important way and that is spiritually with knowledge.
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03 Oct 10
Originally posted by robbie carrobiei am not in fact saying that preaching and teaching is the same thing, why you have formed this opinion, i do not know.
i am not in fact saying that preaching and teaching is the same thing, why you have formed this opinion, i do not know.
As for all Christians being engaged in the preaching and teaching work, i asked for evidence to the contrary, i see none.
As for historical evidence that ALL were preachers and teachers, consider the following,
Celsus, t ...[text shortened]... privilege of certain ranks of the ministry.”
that is before we even touch the inspired text.
I know. That's why I am quite puzzled. You insist that preaching and teaching are different and then you lump them together writing 'Why does the Catholic Church forbid preaching and teaching'? Why, when asked about preaching, do you quote from Scripture about teachers?
As for all Christians being engaged in the preaching and teaching work, i asked for evidence to the contrary, i see none.
Well, that's kind of my attitude too. I said to Galvo on this subject, I cannot find any general commandment from Jesus, or anyone, to preach. So I think you should give some Scriptural evidence in favour of your view that every Christian has a duty to preach. Now if you are simply going to refuse to provide any Scripture, then this will just be a stalemate.
03 Oct 10
Originally posted by Conrau Kyou have been given both scriptural and historical evidence.
[b]i am not in fact saying that preaching and teaching is the same thing, why you have formed this opinion, i do not know.
I know. That's why I am quite puzzled. You insist that preaching and teaching are different and then you lump them together writing 'Why does the Catholic Church forbid preaching and teaching'? Why, when asked about preaching, ...[text shortened]... you are simply going to refuse to provide any Scripture, then this will just be a stalemate.[/b]
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03 Oct 10
Originally posted by robbie carrobieActually, I have not been given Scriptural evidence. In fact, after providing secondary sources, you said 'that is before we even touch the inspired text.' I am waiting for you to touch on the sacred text.
you have been given both scriptural and historical evidence.
03 Oct 10
A Bible verse on which would shed some light on the importance of helping ones both spiritually and physically. It would seem by this scripture the spiritual aspect of helping was of great importance. Sure the material aspect was taken care of but only by a few and the spiritual aspect was done by the many.
Acts 6:1-6 (New International Version)
Acts 6
The Choosing of the Seven
1 In those days when the number of disciples was increasing, the Grecian Jews among them complained against the Hebraic Jews because their widows were being overlooked in the daily distribution of food. 2 So the Twelve gathered all the disciples together and said, "It would not be right for us to neglect the ministry of the word of God in order to wait on tables. 3 Brothers, choose seven men from among you who are known to be full of the Spirit and wisdom. We will turn this responsibility over to them 4 and will give our attention to prayer and the ministry of the word."
5 This proposal pleased the whole group. They chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Spirit; also Philip, Procorus, Nicanor, Timon, Parmenas, and Nicolas from Antioch, a convert to Judaism. 6 They presented these men to the apostles, who prayed and laid their hands on them.
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03 Oct 10
Originally posted by galveston75Again, I am asking you for Scriptural evidence that there is a universal responsibility to preach. Acts 6 demonstrates quite the reverse. The apostles delegate their administrative responsibilities so that they can preach more. The preaching responsibility seems to have belonged primarily to the apostles and those specially commissioned.
A Bible verse on which would shed some light on the importance of helping ones both spiritually and physically. It would seem by this scripture the spiritual aspect of helping was of great importance. Sure the material aspect was taken care of but only by a few and the spiritual aspect was done by the many.
Acts 6:1-6 (New International Version)
A ...[text shortened]... Judaism. 6 They presented these men to the apostles, who prayed and laid their hands on them.
03 Oct 10
5 edits
Originally posted by Conrau KYour reasoning is trully warped for Acts chapter 6 mentions nothing of the sort, for if you carefully notice one of the persons chosen to minister to the widows was Stephen, yes that is correct the first Christian martyr who preached to the Sanhedrin at the cost of his life, also Philip a zealous evangelist, who came to be known by his ministry as Philip the evangelizer
Again, I am asking you for Scriptural evidence that there is a universal responsibility to preach. Acts 6 demonstrates quite the reverse. The apostles delegate their administrative responsibilities so that they can preach more. The preaching responsibility seems to have belonged primarily to the apostles and those specially commissioned.
(Acts 6:5-10) . . . they selected Stephen, a man full of faith and holy spirit, and Philip and Prochorus and Nicanor and Timon and Parmenas and Nicolaus, a proselyte of Antioch; and they placed them before the apostles, and, after having prayed, these laid their hands upon them. Consequently the word of God went on growing, and the number of the disciples kept multiplying in Jerusalem very much; and a great crowd of priests began to be obedient to the faith. Now Stephen, full of graciousness and power, was performing great portents and signs among the people. But certain men rose up of those from the so-called Synagogue of the Freedmen, and of the Cyrenians and Alexandrians and of those from Cilicia and Asia, to dispute with Stephen; and yet they could not hold their own against the wisdom and the spirit with which he was speaking. . .
(Acts 21:8) . . .The next day we set out and arrived in Caesarea, and we entered into the house of Philip the evangelizer, who was one of the seven men, and we stayed with him.
both men having of course been chosen to look after the widows, making your reasoning bumf!
also
(Acts 8:1) . . .all except the apostles were scattered throughout the regions. . .
(Acts 8:4-5) . . .However, those who had been scattered went through the land declaring the good news of the word. Philip, for one, went down to the city of Samaria and began to preach the Christ to them. . .
Evidently all these persons preached which of course did not include the apostles, who stayed in Jerusalem, despite the persecution.
also
Jesus’ purpose in teaching his disciples was to make them like himself, preachers and teachers of the good news of the Kingdom. “A pupil is not above his teacher, but everyone that is perfectly instructed will be like his teacher,” Jesus said. (Lu 6:40) The effectiveness of Christ’s teaching was proved by subsequent history. His disciples continued in the work he had taught them and made disciples throughout the Roman Empire, in Asia, Europe, and Africa, before the close of the first century. This was their principal work, in accord with Jesus Christ’s command at Matthew 28:19, 20.
(Matthew 28:19-20) Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you. And, look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.”
clearly the practice was and is incumbent upon nay who wish to term themselves a disciple of the Christ, as is evidenced by the historical account, the biblical account and the instruction that Christ gave to the disciples.
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03 Oct 10
Originally posted by robbie carrobieYes, I have acknowledged that others aside from the apostles were responsible for preaching. I mentioned Philip earlier, who was named as an evangeliser. It seems however that they had some special commissioning. These men are selected and blessed by the apostles. Clearly a number of early Christians did not preach, not receiving any special commission.
Your reasoning is trully warped for Acts chapter 6 mentions nothing of the sort, for if you carefully notice one of the persons chosen to minister to the widows was Stephen, yes that is correct the first Christian martyr who preached to the Sanhedrin at the cost of his life, also Philip a zealous evangelist, who came to be known by his ministry as P ...[text shortened]... tury. This was their principal work, in accord with Jesus Christ’s command at Matthew 28:19, 20.
Again, all I am asking for is an explicit commandment for each Christian to preach. You clearly cannot find anything. Matthew 28 was specifically directed at the apostles. Luke 6:4 is a bit of a stretch as well.
03 Oct 10
1 edit
Originally posted by robbie carrobieFaith and Works
water? water? try seeing past the Physical oh melancholy Manfred!
(John 4:14) . . .Whoever drinks from the water that I will give him will never get thirsty at all, but the water that I will give him will become in him a fountain of water bubbling up to impart everlasting life. . .
help people how to live,
James 2
14 What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food,
16 and one of you says to them, " Go in peace, be warmed and be filled," and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?
17Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.
18 But someone may well say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works."
Manny
03 Oct 10
5 edits
Originally posted by Conrau KClearly a number of early Christians did not preach,
Yes, I have acknowledged that others aside from the apostles were responsible for preaching. I mentioned Philip earlier, who was named as an evangeliser. It seems however that they had some special commissioning. These men are selected and blessed by the apostles. Clearly a number of early Christians did not preach, not receiving any special commission.
...[text shortened]... g. Matthew 28 was specifically directed at the apostles. Luke 6:4 is a bit of a stretch as well.
sorry must of missed that part, where again in scripture does it state that clearly a number of early Christians did not preach? for clearly two of the persons who were given responsibilities by the apostles were zealous preachers, one even being known by his action.
as for Matthew 28 again your reasoning is truly warped, for Christ qualified the statement or are you unaware that it states, 'look i am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system', which as far as i am aware, has not yet happened, making of course your reasoning , well rather inadequate to say the least. The admonition while given to the apostles was intended for all Christians, who preach and teach and baptise, and who like the apostles, were to be instructed in all the things that Christ had taught them.
all in all Conrau, you have ignored the historical and Biblical narrative, you have NO evidence that early Christians did not preach and your argument is toast. Indeed i am surprised that you even tried to substantiate it. Please don't let it happen again!
03 Oct 10
1 edit
Originally posted by menace71your point please? or is it your pointy hat that's obscuring it?
Faith and Works
James 2
14 What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food,
16 and one of you says to them, " Go in peace, be warmed and be filled," and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their bod ow me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works."
Manny
03 Oct 10
Originally posted by Conrau KFor just one minute lets forget scriptures. Why may I ask do you feel it would not be a loving and obvious life saving work for you to not preach and teach to all you possibly could knowing that there are millions on millions of people out there that do not know or hardly know the Bible? And knowing according to the Bible that it takes knowledge and actions that they need to gain God's favor and blessings?
Again, I am asking you for Scriptural evidence that there is a universal responsibility to preach. Acts 6 demonstrates quite the reverse. The apostles delegate their administrative responsibilities so that they can preach more. The preaching responsibility seems to have belonged primarily to the apostles and those specially commissioned.
Why do you possibly think most of us should not be doing that but instead sit back on our butts and let others do that while we sit doing nothing?
I just can't believe the selfishness that it shows from ones who feel that way.
"Our ship is sinking but I'm just going to hop in my little life raft and watch others fight for their life's and hope that the ones in charge do their job of saving them. Oh let me throw them a piece of bread because they are probably hungry or something!!!.
How completely selfish I would say.
03 Oct 10
Originally posted by menace71Still missing the big picture huh?
Faith and Works
James 2
14 What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food,
16 and one of you says to them, " Go in peace, be warmed and be filled," and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their bod ...[text shortened]... ow me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works."
Manny
03 Oct 10
Originally posted by robbie carrobieFair enough...though I'll say the materialistic help is all that would be of interest to me in a homeless situation - the spiritual guidance would have no value. As for the drugs line, yeah...I suppose I won't get too much mileage with that one given I haven't the experience (see how I back down from and acknowledge a weak argument? :] )
actually Agers, if you approached me on the street and were hungry i would buy you something to eat as i have done on not a few occasions, to homeless persons and others, i was always buying food for Hare Krishnis where i lived, they used to ask for milk, butter and some vegetables. I don't live there any more and don't see them. As for drugs, what ...[text shortened]... ??? You need to do better than this Agers, the statement stands about helping people live.