15 Oct 09
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneHe isn't going to ask why, he is going to talk to those that belong
Jesus taught differently.
If you call Him "Lord", Jesus would ask you "Why?"
Him and those that do not. Those that do belong to Him are not going
to be bringing to Him their good works, He sees them, but they will
be trusting in His righteousness. The good works again will be there,
it is a bi-product of a right relationship.
Kelly
15 Oct 09
Originally posted by KellyJayNot true, the scriptures specifically say that Jesus will ask TOO who is worthy.
He isn't going to ask why, he is going to talk to those that belong
Him and those that do not. Those that do belong to Him are not going
to be bringing to Him their good works, He sees them, but they will
be trusting in His righteousness. The good works again will be there,
it is a bi-product of a right relationship.
Kelly
15 Oct 09
1 edit
Originally posted by KellyJayI understand that this is what you believe.
He isn't going to ask why, he is going to talk to those that belong
Him and those that do not. Those that do belong to Him are not going
to be bringing to Him their good works, He sees them, but they will
be trusting in His righteousness. The good works again will be there,
it is a bi-product of a right relationship.
Kelly
But the fact remains that Jesus didn't teach what you believe. Jesus taught "salvation by righteousness", not "salvation by grace". See the passages I posted earlier.
15 Oct 09
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneSalvation has always been by Grace.
I understand that this is what you believe.
But the fact remains that Jesus didn't teach what you believe. Jesus taught "salvation by righteousness", not "salvation by grace". See the passages I posted earlier.
Jesus was born under the law. But the law can't save. The Jews were under the law and salvation was given to those who faithfully kept the law.
But now we have what the Jews didn't have. Jesus died for our sins. Keeping the law for salvation denies what Jesus did on the cross.
It's logical, rational, and scriptural. Why don't you see it?
15 Oct 09
Originally posted by josephwNot true Joseph, in fact, the theif that died next to Jesus had to escape from the cross, run around for the entire day doing good deeds, and then come back to die on the cross nest to Jesus just so he would be deemed "good enough" to enter heaven.
Salvation has always been by Grace.
Jesus was born under the law. But the law can't save. The Jews were under the law and salvation was given to those who faithfully kept the law.
But now we have what the Jews didn't have. Jesus died for our sins. Keeping the law for salvation denies what Jesus did on the cross.
It's logical, rational, and scriptural. Why don't you see it?
15 Oct 09
Originally posted by josephwThe Jews were under the law and salvation was given to those who faithfully kept the law.
Salvation has always been by Grace.
Jesus was born under the law. But the law can't save. The Jews were under the law and salvation was given to those who faithfully kept the law.
But now we have what the Jews didn't have. Jesus died for our sins. Keeping the law for salvation denies what Jesus did on the cross.
It's logical, rational, and scriptural. Why don't you see it?
So— Are Jews today who faithfully keep the Torah* still saved? Or has that rug been ripped out from under them?
[An interesting aside: “Salvation”—as in eternal life—was (and is) simply not the centerpiece of Judaism that it is in Christianity. Very few Christians seems to actually understand either the Judaism of the first century C.E. (aside from some relatively fringe apocalyptic sects) or the Judaism of today.]
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* Torah doesn’t mean strictly “law”, but that was how the Hebrew got translated into Greek (as nomos).
15 Oct 09
Originally posted by josephwIt may be "scriptural", but it wasn't what Jesus taught.
Salvation has always been by Grace.
Jesus was born under the law. But the law can't save. The Jews were under the law and salvation was given to those who faithfully kept the law.
But now we have what the Jews didn't have. Jesus died for our sins. Keeping the law for salvation denies what Jesus did on the cross.
It's logical, rational, and scriptural. Why don't you see it?
You should really take the time to understand the words attributed to Jesus prior to the crucifixion. By and large, they are quite deep and profound.
15 Oct 09
Originally posted by vistesdThey would need the temple. But it would do no good.
[b] The Jews were under the law and salvation was given to those who faithfully kept the law.
So— Are Jews today who faithfully keep the Torah* still saved? Or has that rug been ripped out from under them?
[An interesting aside: “Salvation”—as in eternal life—was (and is) simply not the centerpiece of Judaism that it is in Christianity. Very fe ...[text shortened]... t mean strictly “law”, but that was how the Hebrew got translated into Greek (as nomos).[/b]
Faith is acting on what God says.
God said to Cain and Abel, "sacrifice this lamb". To Noah, "build an ark". To the Jews, "keep the law". It is the Word of God that one places one's faith in.
Today God says, "trust in what my Son has done on the cross and you will be saved."
Saved by Grace through faith.
15 Oct 09
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneThese the verses you are using to support your works of righteousness
Many people "call themselves Christian". Many people say they "have a relationship with God in Christ". Many people say "being [a Christian] is what God does in us". All are "simply people putting labels on themselves".
John 15:7-11
7 "If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 My Father is gl ...[text shortened]... ill tell them,'I never knew you. [b]Depart from me, you who work iniquity.'[/b]
get you into heaven? You have any others, or is this it?
Kelly
15 Oct 09
I have a sermon you could listen too, to get some understanding as
what I think makes someone a real Christian. I heard this early in
my Christian walk never forgot the message and remembered the
title of the sermon. I've heard a lot of sermons in my Christian walk
very few I recall like this one.
Ten Shekels and a Shirt
Judges 17
Paris Reidhead
Its is a little dry in the beginning but will challenge in the end.
Kelly
15 Oct 09
2 edits
Originally posted by KellyJayBy how do you know that is the 'real definition' of 'real Christian'? As far as I can tell it is only your definition. You have not yet given me the 'real definition of the phrase 'real definition'.
Real Christians are those that are right with God in Christ, I cannot
give you a check list to look at.
Kelly
I merely wish to point out that definitions do not hold truth value and are not necessarily universally accepted. You can never impose a definition on others you can only explain what you mean by it. It is a waste of time arguing over the meaning of a definition. It is more productive to simply state what you mean by a word and listen to what others mean by the word and then agree on a common usage going forward. At no point can your usage be truer than another persons usage.
At least I now know what you mean by 'real Christian'.
15 Oct 09
Originally posted by twhiteheadI told you what a real Christian was, someone who is right with God
By how do you know that is the 'real definition' of 'real Christian'? As far as I can tell it is only your definition. You have not yet given me the 'real definition of the phrase 'real definition'.
I merely wish to point out that definitions do not hold truth value and are not necessarily universally accepted. You can never impose a definition on othe ...[text shortened]... r than another persons usage.
At least I now know what you mean by 'real Christian'.
in Jesus Chirst, it is a relationship with God in Christ. If you do not
have God, it does not matter what kind of "things, works, labels,
groups" you belong to, none of that matters! Even Paul said he
counted the things he could use to justify himself as nothing. We
cannot earn our salvation, it is by grace not of ourselves. If you
attempt to earn it, basically your telling God He now owes you.
Kelly
15 Oct 09
1 edit
Originally posted by KellyJayIt isn't about "works of righteousness", rather a transformation where the individual BECOMES righteous, i.e. one with God.
These the verses you are using to support your works of righteousness
get you into heaven? You have any others, or is this it?
Kelly
John 12:35-36
So Jesus said to them, "For a little while longer the Light is among you. Walk while you have the Light, so that darkness will not overtake you; he who walks in the darkness does not know where he goes. 36 While you have the Light, believe in the Light, so that you may become sons of Light."
John 17:20-23
"I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; 21 that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me. The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one; 23 I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me."
Luke 6:43-49
"For there is no good tree which produces bad fruit, nor, on the other hand, a bad tree which produces good fruit. 44 For each tree is known by its own fruit. For men do not gather figs from thorns, nor do they pick grapes from a briar bush. 45 The good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth what is good; and the evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth what is evil; for his mouth speaks from that which fills his heart."
15 Oct 09
Originally posted by whodeyRight and wrong is one thing. Sin is a completely different thing.
Not true. We all have a sense of right and wrong and Christ nailed it on the head when he said that you should do unto others as you would have them do unto you. No one can deny this law although we have all violated it from time to time.
Sin is definitly a christian thing, atheists doesn't sin. Perhaps they do wrongs from time to time, but they never sin. Sin is not in their world.