Very Few Real Christians

Originally posted by jaywill
Okay, I will address the question briefly. And by briefly I mean some aspects of a proper answer will have to be omitted because you may not want to read that much.

My constitution is the New Testament. My purpose in life is to cooperate with God for the building of His kingdom. For me to cooperate with the kingdom of God I must allow Christ to grow wit ...[text shortened]... t to create a strawman. But honest inquiry for clarification I will address if I have time.

Kidnapping and murder are clearly sins as is slavery. The bible condones slavery and since you are pro bible, naturally, I thought you also would condone slavery. Homosexuality is clearly not a sin. If the bible condoned homosexuality, would you approve? That question aside, in my view, if you condemn homosexuality as a sin, then you , sir are a prejudiced bigot in favor of denying rights to people simply for having the traits they were born with.

Originally posted by 667joe
Kidnapping and murder are clearly sins as is slavery. The bible condones slavery and since you are pro bible, naturally, I thought you also would condone slavery. Homosexuality is clearly not a sin. If the bible condoned homosexuality, would you approve? That question aside, in my view, if you condemn homosexuality as a sin, then you , sir are a prejudi ...[text shortened]... d bigot in favor of denying rights to people simply for having the traits they were born with.

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Kidnapping and murder are clearly sins as is slavery. The bible condones slavery and since you are pro bible, naturally, I thought you also would condone slavery. ================================

If the Bible condones what modern ears typically understand by the word "slavery" then how is it that the Abolitionists used the Bible to argue and convict slave owners to end the practice ?

The Methodists, the Mennonites, the Quakers of the 19th century argued from the Bible to abolish American slaving.

I am careful to qualify what comes to mind by the word, for "slave" in the Bible would also mean servant.

Secondly, there is a difference in what the Bible records as having happened and what it teaches. The fact that the Bible records that this or that person had slaves does not necessarily mean it condones slavery.

There is one entire epistle in the New Testament, Philemon, which is dedicated to the proper Christian response to the social practice of slavery. You should read it carefully to gain more insight into how the New Testament dealt with the problem.

I think the eagerness to exercise bigotry is coming from your side in using broad brushed generalizations to treat the subject.

Now to your other questions and comments:

You said "Kidnapping and murder are clearly sins as is slavery".
How do you know that?

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Homosexuality is clearly not a sin.
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If your answer to the above question about kidnapping and murder "clearly" being sins, is that the Bible told you, then I would submit:

The same Bible told you this:

" ... do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be led astray; neither fornicators nor idolaters nor adulterers nor effeminate nor homosexuals nor thieves nor the covetous, not drunkards, not revilers, not rapacious will inherit the kingdom of God.

And such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God." (1 Cor. 9-11)

This list informs me of sins. Don't you think so too? It says do not be led astray to the contrary. If I say homosexuality is not a sin then I have to say that thievery, covetouesness, drunkeness, reviling, etc. are also not sins. Don't you agree?

The summary is preceeded by the word "the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God". And we are told not to be led astray.

This section of the epistle is both a warning AND an encouragement. Obviously it is a warning or why else would he write the list with such a tone. But it also is an encouragement to continue on with Jesus -

"And these things were some of you, BUT ... you were washed, BUT ... you were sanctified, BUT ... you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God."

The past is under the blood of Christ. The fact of having received a new life in Christ is to be stood upon in faith. The Spirit of God transforms, sanctifies, and renews the soul.

He does not want them to be introspectively focused on their weaknesses. He wants them to appropriate by faith their brand new life in Christ.

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If the bible condoned homosexuality, would you approve?
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I would not be concerned about it in that case. That is as far as the phrase "Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God."

The positive condoning of the New Testament of homosexuality plus its elimination from that list in 1 Cor. 6:9-11 as well as other places certainly would mean to me that it is not a matter of concern to the Christian.


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That question aside, in my view, if you condemn homosexuality as a sin, then you , sir are a prejudiced bigot in favor of denying rights to people simply for having the traits they were born with.
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You have the right to do what you want. I do not rob you of that right. But know that "The unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God ... Do not be led astray ... neither ... homosexuals ... will inherit the kingdom of God."

With that understanding from the Bible, if you are interested in inheriting the kingdom of God, I think we should take heed here. But you have your right to do pretty much what you wish within the law. That is between you and the government of man.

Now the matter of being born with this or that trait:

I was born with the trait to steal. I was born with the trait to be covetous. I was born with the trait to be a drunkard. I was born with the trait of a liar. I was born with the trait of a fornicator.

Because I am a fallen son of Adam, I have from birth the traits of many things. I do not deny that some people are born with a propensity to want to sexually unite with someone of their own sex.

I don't feel that I should justify my giving in to murder, stealing, lying, fornication, or drunkeness because I was born with these traits. In the Christian life, and I stress, particularly in the Christian life, there is empowering grace to deliver me. So rather than justifying being carried away by my born traits, I look to Jesus Christ to wash me, sanctify me, justify me in the Spirit of our God.

I look to the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ to overcome many things that I was born with a tendency to do. So we preach freedom in Christ as part of the Gospel.

He knows our weaknesses, loves us, and can empower us to live Christ. We should have no confidence in our ability to live Christ alone. We must learn to let Him fill and saturate our being. Then He will live out from within us.