Very Few Real Christians

Originally posted by jaywill
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Some parts of the bible say you can go to heaven if you accept Jesus, but other parts say you also have to do good works. Then, another part of the bible says once Jesus forgives you for your sins, if you sin again, you will not go to heaven. If this is true, there will be very few people in heaven. With all of thes ...[text shortened]... erstanding the difficulties concerning paradoxical passages on salvation make very good sense.

You are very good at double talk.

Originally posted by 667joe
You are very good at double talk.

I quoted a paradoxical and difficult passage. And through it removed ground from over confident assertions about how difficult it might be for Jesus to ascend to heaven and return during His earthly sojourn or even assertions about the dimensional nature of Heaven, of which we know very little about.

If you don't want to admit that that is your own problem.

Originally posted by jaywill
I quoted a paradoxical and difficult passage. And through it removed ground from over confident assertions about how difficult it might be for Jesus to ascend to heaven and return during His earthly sojourn or even assertions about the dimensional nature of Heaven, of which we know very little about.

If you don't want to admit that that is your own problem.

More double talk amounting to nothing. Are you pro slavery, anti woman, and against gay rights so you can keep in line with biblical teachings?

Originally posted by 667joe
More double talk amounting to nothing. Are you pro slavery, anti woman, and against gay rights so you can keep in line with biblical teachings?

I like Southern Fried Chicken.

Go back to sleep.

Originally posted by jaywill
I like Southern Fried Chicken.

Go back to sleep.

Some how, I knew you would avoid the answer.

Originally posted by 667joe
Some how, I knew you would avoid the answer.

Because it is a stupid assumption on your part - that I became a follower of Jesus to justify some political activisim.

Originally posted by 667joe
So are you pro gay rights? This is a yes or no question.

Good luck with trying to get a no or yes out of that one...

Originally posted by karoly aczel
Good luck with trying to get a no or yes out of that one...

Yea, good luck.

Distractions, distractions, distractions ...

Originally posted by 667joe
Dear jayawill, what's so hard about answering yes or no?

You handily evade admitting that you have been consumately debunked on your so called Bible "errors," so I will evade your attempts to change the subject to some other favorite accusations of Christians.

Originally posted by jaywill
You handily evade admitting that you have been consumately debunked on your so called Bible "errors," so I will evade your attempts to change the subject to some other favorite accusations of Christians.

...Or even a 'maybe' or a 'dont know'...

Originally posted by karoly aczel
...Or even a 'maybe' or a 'dont know'...

Okay, I will address the question briefly. And by briefly I mean some aspects of a proper answer will have to be omitted because you may not want to read that much.

My constitution is the New Testament. My purpose in life is to cooperate with God for the building of His kingdom. For me to cooperate with the kingdom of God I must allow Christ to grow within me. That growth will result in a certain kind of expression, an expression of righteous living, godly living, a living that can be built up in oneness with others who live in the kingdom life.

Now the New Testament, my constitution lists some things which inform me that I cannot inherit the kingdom of God while I am under the enfluence of these life styles. I don't think the lists are exhaustive. But I think they are certainly indicative of when those who would inherit the kingdom are on the right track or the wrong track.

Murder, homosexuality, and kidnapping are lifestyles in which I cannot inherit the kingdom of God if I habitually live in them.

I include kidnapping to cover the kind of slavery which would steal people to force them to work for you. So I think kidnapping would indicate what arises in the modern mind at the word "slavery".

Having said all this I would add. I have only known one form of human government - american democracy. My understanding of democracy is that it is a kind of majority opinion rule. If I found that the majority opinion rule of my country were to make living here intolerably offensive to my Christian conscience, I would most likely seek citizenship elsewhere. I respect democracy.

So I am not for homosexuality, am not for murder by abortion, and not for slavery (kidnapping and forced servitude). And any Christian ensnared by these matters I would counsel that she or he should look to the grace of Christ's salvation to be freed from them. That does not mean these are the only sins from which we need to be set free.

Does this answer your curiosity? Now if you want to discuss this please respect that this is not a book but a short post. Please don't twist my post to create a strawman. But honest inquiry for clarification I will address if I have time.

Originally posted by jaywill
Okay, I will address the question briefly. And by briefly I mean some aspects of a proper answer will have to be omitted because you may not want to read that much.

My constitution is the New Testament. My purpose in life is to cooperate with God for the building of His kingdom. For me to cooperate with the kingdom of God I must allow Christ to grow wit ...[text shortened]... t to create a strawman. But honest inquiry for clarification I will address if I have time.

Can't you see the difference between murder and kidnapping, and homosexuality. The first two refer to sins perpertrated on others while the third is a so-called 'sin' between two consenting adults. Everytime I hear a christian denounce homosexuality ,I think Why? Why cant you focus your energies on areas where they can actually do some good (and possibly prevent a murder or a kidnapping)?

Originally posted by karoly aczel
Can't you see the difference between murder and kidnapping, and homosexuality. The first two refer to sins perpertrated on others while the third is a so-called 'sin' between two consenting adults. Everytime I hear a christian denounce homosexuality ,I think Why? Why cant you focus your energies on areas where they can actually do some good (and possibly prevent a murder or a kidnapping)?

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Can't you see the difference between murder and kidnapping, and homosexuality.
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My present opinion is that indulgent heterosexual or homosexual unbridled lust is a form of idolatry. Idolatry damages the human vessel that God created for Himself.

My burden is not to devote life to see that laws are passed so that gayness is punishable by courts. That is not my calling. My calling is to introduce people to the living Lord Jesus. Outside of the community of faith in Christ, I expect that all kinds of permissive sinful living will likely grow more and more corrupt.

But to those who respond to the gospel that we may bring back the Lord Jesus to this earth, I certainly want to live and teach Him as the liberator from all manner of idolatry.

A homosexual person can of course receive the gift of eternal redemption and eternal life. All manner of sins that men sin will be forgiven of them. But the goal of the gospel is not simply our forgiveness. Our forgiveness is not the only end in itself. So you should not be confused when I say that a homosexual or a drunkard or a divisive person or a brawler or kidnapper will not inherit the kingdom of God.

This is a matter not of failing to be saved eternally. It is a matter of being disqualified temprarily from participating in the kingdom of God in its reality and manifestation. There is a difference.

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The first two refer to sins perpertrated on others while the third is a so-called 'sin' between two consenting adults.
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I think between two consenting adults who indulge in adultery or fornication, the Holy Spirit with the word of God, can convict one or both that they should not do such things.

Our are not simply between each other. We are all accountable to God. Do you think that because I and my neighbor's wife consent to an affair that what we do is only between us two consenting adults ?

Do you think that two consenting men or two consenting woman lying with each other to mutually masterbate themselves in a pretend act of copulation is only between themselves?

You may believe that. But I believe the truth is that what we live and do is to God. So we preach the gospel of redemption and transformation through the power of God's grace.

This is not seeking for a theocracy. At least that is not my calling. This is dispensing Christ as life into people's lives for the building of His kingdom.

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Everytime I hear a christian denounce homosexuality ,I think Why? Why cant you focus your energies on areas where they can actually do some good (and possibly prevent a murder or a kidnapping)?
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I was asked where I stood on three issues. I decided to answer. I am not a political activist but a preacher of the gospel. My calling is not to run around and "put down sin" everywhere in society.

But if someone asks if a sin will help or hinder their participation in the buildng up of God's kingdom, I am compeled to address that from the word of God, the Bible.

The sin of people of the same sex seeking sex with each other is not lifted portrayed as worse than, ie. other sins. It simply enumerated along with other things which tempt all of us. Notice:

"Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be led astray; neither fornicators nor idolaters nor adulterers nor effiminate nor homosexuals nor theives not the covetous, not drunkards, nor revilers, not the rapacious will inherit the kingdom of God.

And these things were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God." (1 Cor. 5:9-11)

The same concern should be had towards, ie. covetousness, reviling, stealing, etc.

Perhaps because of the example of Sodom and Gamorrah in Genesis 18,19 homsexuality is singled out for particular fear as a corrupting enfuence. It does tend to make you think that that particular judgment was special warning. It may represent something of a final stage of man's rebellion.

"And Jehovah said, The cry of Sodom and Gamorrah, how great it is; and their sin, how very heavy it is! I shall go down and see whether they have done altogether according to its outcry, which has come to Me; and if not, I will know." (Gen. 18:20)

The picture that I get is that these people's revolting rally cry rose up as a taunt and fist shacking before God. "We want what we want what we want. And even God has no buisiness to interfere!"

This may be why many societies reserve special revulsion for homosexuality. It should be also noted that latter in the Bible there is an indication that excessive pride, riches, neglect of the poor, and indulgant leisure was a contributing condition to the rebellion of Sodom and Gamorrah:

"This was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, excess of food and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy. They were haughty and did abominable things before me; therefore I removed them when I saw it. "

See Ezekiel 16:46-50