What do atheists...

Originally posted by Agerg
The thing is, a lack of such harmony and "apparent design" would be inconsistent with the physical laws we believe govern the universe. If we were all rolling around with our eyes in our arses, and levitating through freezing cold bonfires then that would be consistent with magic and miracles (i.e. your "G"od).

That you acknowledge the harmony manifest in t ...[text shortened]... rmony it would be physically impossible for you to be sat at your computer talking about it.

The fact of the matter is dear Agers that harmony does not rise spontaneously from
chaos, the fact that we are able to communicate is a greater miracle than the surreal
visions that you mention, the universe if governed by laws and any laws demand, of
necessity, a law maker. Thus one may gain knowledge of the workings of the
universe, but it tells us nothing of the why, the reason for it, does it, that is why
materialism or rather naturalism cannot provide a proper understanding of reality.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
LOL, dude, i spent an entire summer studying all different kinds of trees, identifying,
classifying, drawing, collecting seeds from etc etc, not for a single moment was I
unconvinced of the harmony, beauty and design apparent in these majestic creations I
was studying and I didn't get that from the books I was reading. Face the facts, your
materialism is a hindrance to understanding reality.

Face the facts, your materialism is a hindrance to understanding reality.

A fundamentalist Christian accuses me of denial and not understanding reality. I'm going off to feel my bum to make sure i actually woke up this morning.

Originally posted by Proper Knob
[b]Face the facts, your materialism is a hindrance to understanding reality.

A fundamentalist Christian accuses me of denial and not understanding reality. I'm going off to feel my bum to make sure i actually woke up this morning.[/b]

Haha, all i am saying is that you need to unplug yourself from your naturalism, its
limiting your ability to determine realities. May i suggest a slight pinch on the posterior
from Mrs PK may just do the trick!

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
The fact of the matter is dear Agers that harmony does not rise spontaneously from
chaos, the fact that we are able to communicate is a greater miracle than the surreal
visions that you mention, the universe if governed by laws and any laws demand, of
necessity, a law maker. Thus one may gain knowledge of the workings of the
universe, but it ...[text shortened]... that is why
materialism or rather naturalism cannot provide a proper understanding of reality.

The chaos you speak about is, from a physics point of view, very well ordered - we just have difficulty making sense of it all. Indeed with an application of the same logic you use I should demand a creator of that creator (and a creator of *that* creator, and a creator of ...)

Oh wait...this infinite chain of creators stops with your claim (simply by fiat) that "G"od requires no creator.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Haha, all i am saying is that you need to unplug yourself from your naturalism, its
limiting your ability to determine realities. May i suggest a slight pinch on the posterior
from Mrs PK may just do the trick!

I am plugged into the evidence with an open mind. I after all evaluate the evidence with my own mind and come to my own conclusions. Can you say the same?

Originally posted by kd2acz
I mean we are probably the best ones to know what we are thinking or what our motivations are. Are we always self serving are we all self serving? Do you not trust your inner being or do you think it to be deceptive?

I am reserving judgement on why I am here because my judgement may cast me into a role that is limiting and I may find myself over-defending and may be (independently of that) inacccurate.

Originally posted by Proper Knob
I am plugged into the evidence with an open mind. I after all evaluate the evidence with my own mind and come to my own conclusions. Can you say the same?

ok then, tell me why? Why does the universe exist?

Originally posted by Agerg
The chaos you speak about is, from a physics point of view, very well ordered - we just have difficulty making sense of it all. Indeed with an application of the same logic you use I should demand a creator of that creator (and a creator of *that* creator, and a creator of ...)

Oh wait...this infinite chain of creators stops with your claim (simply by fiat) that "G"od requires no creator.

Indeed!

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
ok then, tell me why? Why does the universe exist?

I, like everybody else on the planet, have no idea.

Originally posted by Proper Knob
I like, everybody else on the planet, have no idea.

you see, your adherence to naturalism is entirely limiting.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
you see, your adherence to naturalism is entirely limiting.

What?! Nobody knows the answer to that question, i'm not going to make something up just for the hell of it.

Originally posted by Proper Knob
What?! Nobody knows the answer to that question, i'm not going to make something up just for the hell of it.

But if you DID make something up about the origins of the universe just for the hell of it you could then use it to justify what ever religion you subscribed to or created for yourself.

Originally posted by FMF
But if you DID make something up about the origins of the universe just for the hell of it you could then use it to justify what ever religion you subscribed to or created for yourself.

To claim that an honest, open-minded answer to a question is 'limiting' is a new one on me.

Originally posted by Proper Knob
To claim that an honest, open-minded answer to a question is 'limiting' is a new one on me.

I think the adjective "limiting" here, as robbie uses it, just means he disagrees with whatever he attaches it to, but it has that little sneer thing going on too. You know, "limiting", as opposed to "deep" or "awesome", which are thus attached to whatever it is he agrees with. 😵

Originally posted by FMF
I think the adjective "limiting" here, as robbie uses it, just means he disagrees with whatever he attaches it to, but it has that little sneer thing going on too. You know, "limiting", as opposed to "deep" or "awesome", which are thus attached to whatever it is he agrees with. 😵

once again the slimy FMF sea monster rises to the surface, denuding every post of its
intellectual significance and reducing it to a carcass of personal insult.