Originally posted by robbie carrobieThe Greek for "firstborn" is proto with tikto which would give us "firstborn," and that is what we find here in Colossians 1:15. The Greek for "first created" would be proto with ktizo, and it is not used here.
no why should it?
Furthermore other verses rule the possibility out as in Colossians Chapter 1:15 which clearly states that he was a created entity, The first-born of all creation. Christ simply becomes an eternal father to those who are preserved for everlasting life. To follow your logic we should assume that those who gain everlasting life are also eternal, a nonsense proposition.
Second, the biblical use of the word "firstborn" is most interesting. It can mean the first born child in a family (Luke 2:7), but it can also mean "pre-eminence." In Psalm 89:20, 27 it says, "I have found David My servant; with My holy oil I have anointed him . . . I also shall make him My first-born." As you can see, David, who was the last one born in his family, was called the firstborn by God. This is a title of preeminence.
Third, firstborn is also a title that is transferable:
Gen. 41:51-52, "And Joseph called the name of the first-born Manasseh: For, said he, God hath made me forget all my toil, and all my fatherï's house. And the name of the second called he Ephraim: For God hath made me fruitful in the land of my affliction."
Jer. 31:9, " . . . for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is My firstborn."
Scripture best interprets scripture. Firstborn does not require a meaning of first created. "Firstborn" can mean the first born person in a family, and it can also be a title of preeminence which is transferable. That is obvious since Jesus is God in flesh (John 1:1, 14) and is also the first born son of Mary. In addition, He is the pre-eminent one in all things.
https://carm.org/col-115-firstborn-all-creation
Originally posted by FetchmyjunkYou cannot get away from the fact that the Christ is of the creation (the Greek genitive article translated 'of', makes this quite clear ) and no amount of references to definitions or semantic arguments can change this fact, Christ is of, or a part of the creation.
The Greek for "firstborn" is proto with tikto which would give us "firstborn," and that is what we find here in Colossians 1:15. The Greek for "first created" would be proto with ktizo, and it is not used here.
Second, the biblical use of the word "firstborn" is most interesting. It can mean the first born child in a family (Luke 2:7), but it can also ...[text shortened]... ion, He is the pre-eminent one in all things.
https://carm.org/col-115-firstborn-all-creation
Furthermore the term firstborn is used about thirty times prior to Collosians 1:15 and almost always refers to progeny, as in first born of the Egyptians, why it suddenly takes on another meaning when it is used with reference to Christ is rather interesting but many terms seem to take on a magical significance when juxtaposed next to Christ. To cite an obscure reference from the Psalms which allegedly means pre-eminence ( I would say its more a prophetic reference to Gods own first-born son Jesus Christ) as justification for ignoring all of these instances is once again simply clutching at straws, Christ is clearly of the creation.
“And to the angel of the congregation in Laodicea write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God - Revelation 3:14
prototokos: first-born
Original Word: πρωτότοκος, ον
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: prototokos
Phonetic Spelling: (pro-tot-ok'-os)
Short Definition: first-born
Definition: first-born, eldest.
Its a composite of two words, protos first and tikto, 'bring forth' – properly, first in time
Luke 2:7 Adj-AMS
GRK: αὐτῆς τὸν πρωτότοκον καὶ ἐσπαργάνωσεν
NAS: And she gave birth to her firstborn son;
KJV: her firstborn son,
INT: of her the first-born and wrapped in swaddling clothes
Romans 8:29 Adj-AMS
GRK: εἶναι αὐτὸν πρωτότοκον ἐν πολλοῖς
NAS: so that He would be the firstborn among
KJV: he might be the firstborn among many
INT: to be him firstborn among many
Colossians 1:15 Adj-NMS
GRK: τοῦ ἀοράτου πρωτότοκος πάσης κτίσεως
NAS: God, the firstborn of all
KJV: God, the firstborn of every
INT: invisible [the] firstborn of all creation
Colossians 1:18 Adj-NMS
GRK: ἡ ἀρχή πρωτότοκος ἐκ τῶν
NAS: and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead,
KJV: the beginning, the firstborn from
INT: the beginning firstborn from among the
Hebrews 1:6 Adj-AMS
GRK: εἰσαγάγῃ τὸν πρωτότοκον εἰς τὴν
NAS: brings the firstborn into the world,
KJV: he bringeth in the firstbegotten into
INT: he brings in the first-born into the
Hebrews 11:28 Adj-ANP
GRK: ὀλοθρεύων τὰ πρωτότοκα θίγῃ αὐτῶν
NAS: that he who destroyed the firstborn would not touch
KJV: he that destroyed the firstborn should touch
INT: the destroyer of the firstborn might touch them
Hebrews 12:23 Adj-GMP
GRK: καὶ ἐκκλησίᾳ πρωτοτόκων ἀπογεγραμμένων ἐν
NAS: and church of the firstborn who are enrolled
KJV: church of the firstborn, which are written
INT: and to [the] church of [the] firstborn [ones] enrolled in
Revelation 1:5 Adj-NMS
GRK: πιστός ὁ πρωτότοκος τῶν νεκρῶν
NAS: witness, the firstborn of the dead,
KJV: witness, [and] the first begotten of
INT: faithful the firstborn of the dead
Why in all of these instances is the term first created not used when making reference to the firstborn as you have alleged should be the case?
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Originally posted by FetchmyjunkFetchmyjunk, Do you ever recall me explaining what the difference was between " the Firstborn of all creation" (Col. 1:15) and "the Firstborn from among the dead " (Col. 1:18) was? I know I have written about this in response to Arianism (ie. Robbie's JW Christology).
The Greek for "firstborn" is proto with tikto which would give us "firstborn," and that is what we find here in Colossians 1:15. The Greek for "first created" would be proto with ktizo, and it is not used here.
Second, the biblical use of the word "firstborn" is most interesting. It can mean the first born child in a family (Luke 2:7), but it can also ...[text shortened]... ion, He is the pre-eminent one in all things.
https://carm.org/col-115-firstborn-all-creation
If you'd like to hear it, I'll write about this again.
Originally posted by sonshipYou can call it what you like, the scripture is crystal clear and no amount of waffling monologue from you or anyone else can change the fact.
Fetchmyjunk, Do you ever recall me explaining what the difference was between [b]" the Firstborn of all creation" (Col. 1:15) and "the Firstborn from among the dead " (Col. 1:18) was? I know I have written about this in response to Arianism (ie. Robbie's JW Christology).
If you'd like to hear it, I'll write about this again.[/b]
Originally posted by sonshipTranslated :
Thankyou.
Thank you for supporting my false doctrine. Its not in the BIble but I believe that nonsense anyway.
There is no such thing as fully man man fully God. Jesus was born a superior being to man and is still under God and subject to him. So he cannot be fully God either.
Originally posted by Rajk999Rajk999, can you provide your opinion as to why some Christians believe Jesus is God.
Translated :
Thank you for supporting my false doctrine. Its not in the BIble but I believe that nonsense anyway.
There is no such thing as fully man man fully God. Jesus was born a superior being to man and is still under God and subject to him. So he cannot be fully God either.
What happened?
Originally posted by Rajk999What you just said isn't scriptural if Jesus wasn't a man than He could not have been tempted like us! So do you deny Jesus the Son of Man was a man?
Translated :
Thank you for supporting my false doctrine. Its not in the BIble but I believe that nonsense anyway.
There is no such thing as fully man man fully God. Jesus was born a superior being to man and is still under God and subject to him. So he cannot be fully God either.
Do you deny Jesus was the Word of God made flesh? Do you deny Jesus is the only begotten of God?
Do you believe the Spirit of God made Mary pregnant or do you think Joseph did it?
Originally posted by KellyJayI think all he is saying is that there's zero proof that Jesus is God.
What you just said isn't scriptural if Jesus wasn't a man than He could not have been tempted like us! So do you deny Jesus the Son of Man was a man?
Do you deny Jesus was the Word of God made flesh? Do you deny Jesus is the only begotten of God?
Do you believe the Spirit of God made Mary pregnant or do you think Joseph did it?